056 Deconstructing Faith (and Blaming the Church)

A raw, honest conversation with Caleb Edwards on faith, deconstruction, responsibility, and reclaiming personal agency. In this episode, we talk candidly about creativity, entrepreneurship, calling, money, and why so many people walk away from faith not because God failed, but because unresolved expectations and misplaced blame went unaddressed.

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ABOUT THIS EPISODE

What happens when faith collides with disappointment, unmet expectations, and the weight of responsibility?

In this unfiltered conversation, Justin sits down with longtime friend and entrepreneur Caleb Edwards to explore why so many people are “deconstructing” their faith, and what’s actually happening beneath the surface. Together, they unpack the role of personal agency, the danger of exporting blame, the church’s impact, and the tension between creativity, money, and calling.

If you’ve wrestled with faith, burnout, identity, or disappointment with the church, this conversation will meet you where you are, and then push you toward something stronger.

ABOUT JUSTIN RIZZO

If you’re new here, my name is Justin Rizzo.

I'm a worship leader, songwriter, and filmmaker based in the Midwest, USA. I'm the founder of the Worship Leader Academy, which has helped hundreds of worship leaders grow and develop through online community and one-on-one coaching.

How I got here…

7 yrs old: Love for music began with the recorder.
9 yrs old: Started drum lessons.  
12 yrs old: Parents taught how to lead worship.
13 yrs old: Led an original song at church.
13 yrs old: Vowed I'd never do it again. 
16 yrs old: Began to really love leading worship.
18 yrs old: Became a full-time worship leader.
19 yrs old: Broke my vow and began writing again.
20 yrs old: Recorded my first record.
23 yrs old: Leading began to feel like a burden.
24 yrs old: Blogged about worship leading.
25 yrs old: Started therapy and found healing.
26 yrs old: Called to produce musicals and films.
27 yrs old: Wrote and produced my first musical  
29 yrs old: Started my own production company.

Today: I live full-time as a worship leader and creative. I've written and produced three award- winning musical films, had millions stream my music, and travel the world leading worship and speaking at events.

To all of the worship leaders and creatives in the f

Chapters

• 0:00 Personal Responsibility And Deconstruction
• 0:32 Welcome And Guest Introduction
• 1:18 Early Entrepreneurship Origins
• 2:36 The Seashell Necklace Hustle
• 5:43 Mentorship And Mindset Shifts
• 9:00 Money As A Tool, Not A Taboo
• 12:20 Work As Worship And Theology
• 16:20 Paul As Marketer And Tentmaker
• 20:25 Balancing Business And Ministry
• 24:00 Peace In Seasons Of Calling
• 27:20 King And Priest In Harmony
• 31:00 Missions Culture And Agency
• 35:10 Detangling Faith Without Burning It Down
• 38:20 Introducing Creative Legacy Gathering
• 42:00 Why This Event Is Different
• 47:20 Speakers, Details, And Invitation
• 49:55 Closing And Next Steps

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

We've got a huge movement of people that are deconstructing and moving away from the faith because now they're mad at God because of the decisions they made when they were 18 and 19 that the church and the missions machine lured them into. You can't blame anybody but you, dude. Massive self-agency. Accept that you are where you are in your life right now, and the reason for that is you. If you spend any of your energy like exporting blame to some other entity, then that energy is not spent on reclaiming your power to change your current situation.

SPEAKER_01: 0:32

Welcome in to another episode. My name is Justin, and I'm super excited today to chat with one of my good friends named Caleb Edwards. Caleb, thanks for being here. Thanks for having me, Did. So as you guys know, if you're a listener to the show, we talk a lot about uh creativity, entrepreneurship. And what I love about Caleb, what we're gonna talk about today, is he is a uh a perfect blend of both of those things. Um I'll kind of share how we met, but then with what he's doing today, I'm really excited to kind of get into that world a little bit of the entrepreneurial side. But we met um leading worship together uh here in Kansas City, and we were on the same team together, kind of co-leading together for a lot of years. But before you led worship, you were an entrepreneur, right? And you had a couple businesses?

SPEAKER_00: 1:15

Uh one primary business and then some side ventures, yeah. So I started a uh actually a landscaping company when I was 11 years old. And uh it wasn't just like I mean, at first it was just, hey, I want to, you know, cut some lawns to help my mom out who my parents had separated, she was struggling financially. I took it upon myself to try to help. And uh, you know, lo and behold, that little venture, you know, turned into a by the time I was 26, uh, you know, kind of built that company from 11 all the way to 26 to full service uh landscaping company. We did hardscapes, we did all the kind of stuff, you know, cut my teeth on business in the school of hard knocks, right? Figuring out what not to do. Got a business mentor when I was 18 to help me.

SPEAKER_01: 1:58

And so sorry to interrupt your awesome story, but uh do you want to know what my first business was?

SPEAKER_00: 2:03

I would love for you to tell me. I probably already know, but you probably already know.

SPEAKER_01: 2:06

Do you want to take a guess? Um how well do you know me? How well do you know me?

SPEAKER_00: 2:11

Uh I know one of your first jobs was at Tim Horton's Coffee.

SPEAKER_01: 2:16

Uh that wasn't my first was actually my third or fourth job. My first business I started, though, was a greeting cards business.

SPEAKER_00: 2:23

A greeting card. You have told me that before.

SPEAKER_01: 2:25

At the age of 12. Wow. Um sold in a church?

SPEAKER_00: 2:28

Is that what it was?

SPEAKER_01: 2:29

I I tried. I tried. No one bought anything.

SPEAKER_00: 2:32

No one bought anything? Not a single sale?

SPEAKER_01: 2:34

My dad was a pastor in upstate New York, and even the old people, you know, who should be super sweet, just bring you a five-dollar bill, didn't sell one. I mean, they were like my inkjet, my parents' inkjet color printer. It looked like crap. They were horrible. Not one sale.

SPEAKER_00: 2:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 2:47

So we exited that for uh for nothing.

SPEAKER_00: 2:49

For zero dollars. For zero dollars. For zero dollars. Well, man, it's funny. I I say my first business, my first actual business was the landscaping business, but about a year before that, my grandpa was a uh he was like a pipe welder for Duke Energy, and he got asbestosis from working on power plants, and so he got a small settlement. I don't know, it's like$100,000. I don't know, it wasn't a little amount of money, but it was like more money than he'd ever have. It was life-changing for him. One of the things he wanted to do was take our whole family on a vacation to the Outer Banks of North Carolina, which is where I'm originally from. Uh not the outer banks, western North Carolina, but that doesn't matter. He gave all of us kids a hundred dollar bill to spend while we were there. And I was like, I felt rich. I was 10 or 11 years old, you know. But then I started looking at all the things I wanted to do. And I was like, I'm gonna spend more than$100 this week. So I had to, I was either I need to cut things off my list to do, or I need to figure out how to get this hundred dollars and turn it into more money.

SPEAKER_02: 3:43

So you're 11?

SPEAKER_00: 3:44

I was 10 or 11. Yeah. So I I we went to like this flea market, um, indoor flea market, and I negotiated my first deal. I got this lady to sell me. Do you remember those seashell necklaces that like were popular when we were kids? Yeah. Kenny Chesney always had one, that kind of thing. Um I got this lady to to sell me 10 of them for 10 bucks. And I went up and down the beach that afternoon, and I decided, I was like, okay, my grandparents, they they go on vacations every year and they always bring me something back as a souvenir, something small. So I identified my ideal client. It was older couples that were there sitting on the beach, and I approached them literally like one of those like Caribbean, you know, like swindlers with the accent? I had a no, I didn't, but I put them on my arm, you know, the the seashell necklace on my arm, and I walked up and I said, Hi, my name's Caleb. I'm here with my family. This is my first time coming. Do you have grandkids?

SPEAKER_02: 4:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 4:43

And they're like, Yeah. I'm like, well, I know every time my grandparents come on vacation without me, they always bring me something back. I know what are pop what's popular amongst kids these days, and it's these seashell necklaces. You can buy them anywhere on the island for$5 each, or you can stay in your beach chair and you could buy them from me for$10.

SPEAKER_02: 5:01

Very nice.

SPEAKER_00: 5:02

I sold out, I sold out in an hour.

SPEAKER_02: 5:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 5:04

Turned my$100 into$200.

SPEAKER_02: 5:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 5:07

That's how I basically figured out like entrepreneurship. It's really identifying like who the right person is first, and then how you can uniquely position yourself to be a solution for that person. And it's not based on price, it's not based on how much they have to pay. It's I didn't sell them seashell necklaces. I sold them the ability to not only get something that they were probably gonna get anyway, but to feel really good about doing that by buying it from someone that reminded them of their of their grandchild that they were buying it for.

SPEAKER_01: 5:40

Who taught Caleb that? Like why did you think that way?

SPEAKER_00: 5:42

I think it was, I don't, I don't really know. I mean, my grandpa probably had a big role in that. We used to, in in just in the work ethic part, I used to go up and down, you know, our country roads picking up aluminum cans, and he would take me, you know, once a quarter or something like that to sell aluminum cans. He would, you know, so he he kind of taught me, you know, the idea of like there's more than one way to make money. You don't just have to go get a job and you know serve somebody else's dream. You can actually pursue your dream and provide real value to the world in different ways and make money that way.

SPEAKER_01: 6:14

You know, but are your mom and dad entrepreneurial?

SPEAKER_00: 6:16

Not not really at all.

SPEAKER_01: 6:17

So it like skipped a generation then.

SPEAKER_00: 6:19

I think so. And my grandpa wasn't really entrepreneurial. I think he just taught me work ethic and and that kind of thing. I don't know, I I really don't know where exactly it came from. I mean, I know it got refined by my first business mentor who was a cousin by marriage, uh, a guy named Michael Crowder, but um that wasn't until I was 18 that I really had him mentoring me. Like before then, it was just, I don't know, almost intuitive, I guess. I think it was I think it was a a God thing. Like it was just who God made me to be was somebody who brought value to the world and was able to figure out ways to make money.

SPEAKER_01: 6:52

So 11, 8, 11 years old, you start going lawns, 18, you get your first mentor, your cousin. Did you have employees from 11 to 18 or no?

SPEAKER_00: 7:01

By the time I was 12, I hired two of my buddies to help. Yeah. Obviously paid them cash. We just worked mostly during the summer. Under the table? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, dude. Everything was under the table. Plooded that out until I was 19, 20.

SPEAKER_01: 7:14

So what made you what made you think you needed a coach?

SPEAKER_00: 7:19

I didn't know that I needed one. Honestly, he pursued me.

SPEAKER_01: 7:22

Okay, he told you.

SPEAKER_00: 7:23

Yeah, he pursued me. He recruited me into like a network marketing direct sales thing.

SPEAKER_01: 7:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 7:28

And he told me, he said, you know, don't think of this as a way to make money. Think of this as a personal development program with a compensation package attached to it. And so he helped shift my mindset about like sometimes you you you pursue a venture to make money. Sometimes you pursue a venture to become a better version of yourself so that 10 years later you can make money. So you had the humility to over 18-year-old to like well, I just knew like I'm I'm I don't know what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01: 7:58

You knew that.

SPEAKER_00: 7:58

Like I knew, yeah, I knew like I I know enough have like how to hustle and make like and make ends meet, but I don't know how to make this thing actually successful. You know, and and and I didn't even know enough to know I should pursue a mentor or pursue, you know, somebody who knew more than me. So it was honestly Michael was probably a godsend in him just approaching me at a family, you know, family dinner thing and just asking me about you know what I was doing, what I was, you know, that kind of stuff. And I told him and he's like, hey, I want to run something by you. Could you, you know, could you meet up next week and let's chat? I'll buy you lunch. And we sat down and he showed me this direct sales network marketing thing, and it seemed brilliant, you know. Like I was like, Oh, this is amazing. I can make money off of other people's work, not just my own.

SPEAKER_01: 8:51

So the money kind of allureed you got to then.

SPEAKER_00: 8:54

Well, yeah. Yeah, I mean you're 18.

SPEAKER_01: 8:56

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00: 8:56

Like money, like everybody wants to make money.

SPEAKER_01: 8:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 9:00

I think I think it's one of the weird things about Christian entrepreneurs is like sometimes we we we act like we're not doing stuff for money, or we don't care if we make money off of stuff, but then we're like constantly stressed about money.

SPEAKER_02: 9:14

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00: 9:14

And it's like if we would just remove the weirdness, yeah, and not not not like I don't care if like you're a a a creative who's like, you know, uh would consider yourself more of an artist, or you're an entrepreneur, would consider yourself more of a builder. It's like all of those, like like you gotta figure out how to make money and you gotta do that shamelessly. Yeah, not uh obviously as as believers, we don't, you know, we don't wanna have our treasure stored in heaven. We, you know, your money, you know, your your treasure is where your heart will be. But at the same time, we're called to be stewards not only of whatever financial resource we have, but whatever capacity we have. And so I think of you know, money in and of itself is neither good nor bad. Right? Money is a tool. It's how I choose to relate to it and what I do with it that makes it good or bad. Just like, you know, a hammer in my garage is a tool. If I use that hammer to hit someone in the head, then it's bad. If I use that hammer to build a house, then it's good because it served its best purpose. And I think it's the same with money. Money's just a tool.

SPEAKER_01: 10:23

Yeah, I want to uh go off of this and ask a couple questions here in a second, but it's interesting the the journeys, the similarities in our journeys, also the differences in our journeys. You know, my business did not quite go, my greeting card business did not go the way that yours went. Um but I found myself, as you already said, in a place called Tim Hortons, which all my Canadian friends out there know. Um it's a lower-tier coffee chain. Uh I'm now I have like my own coffee Instagram, so I find I even feel foolish saying this, but I love Tim Hortons when I was young, you know, got a job there when I was 15. But before that, um I actually called up our local grocery store, Topps Friendly Market, um, and I was 12, and I lied and pretended I was a 15 or 16-year-old older brother to my 12-year-old brother. And I asked them, uh, hey, you know, I'm I'm uh you have a younger brother, he's 12. Is there anything you can do around the store, you know, carts or anything like that? You know, whatever. And they basically like laughed me off the phone. It was not a good experience. Um, but then when I got a job at Tim Hortons and I was 15 years old, um, the owners of my store, uh, Dave and Alana Beaton, which shout out to them if they ever see this, they're amazing people. They saw something, I now see it in hindsight, and myself and my brother and my sister, all three of us actually worked there, um, and they saw something in us in terms of like work ethic, and there was a point of uh a line of the same, or a um a fork in the road where I could continue pursuing the Tim Hortons route onto you know managing possibly even my own store, or you know, come to Kansas City and join you know the House of Prayer and be a worship leader. And I chose the house of prayer, which we'll talk about here in a little bit. But um what you were saying earlier is is a fascinating thing. And we could have a whole multi-series podcast on this. The topic of what you said, Christian business owners. Um, most of them, you know, so let's use like the big ones. There's there's some huge Christian companies out there in America that everyone knows that they're Christian, you know, the hobby lobbies and different places like that.

SPEAKER_02: 12:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 12:16

Overtly Christian. And no one uh that I'm aware of, you know, bats an eye of them being a multi-billion dollar company. And that's you know, they're they're Christian. Like they're overtly, their value is everything, Christian, Christian, Christian, Christian. They work for Jesus, if you will, right?

SPEAKER_02: 12:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 12:30

But however, you go to the other side, creatives, artists, pastors, preachers, and the scrutiny, they also work for Jesus, but the scrutiny that we give those people is like, you make money. What? But yet over here in a business, all for Jesus, it's like, oh yes, your billions. Then when we ask them for their billions, hey, help us fund this mission, whatever. Yeah, on this side over here, it's like pastors, preachers, artists, creatives. It's like we think we have this, I believe a lot of Christians have this like thought process of you should be poor or at least pay your bills, and that's about it. Don't have a private jet, don't, and I'm not like pro-private jet, but I'm just as an example, um, don't have all these types of things. What do you think causes that huge divide amongst the Christians?

SPEAKER_00: 13:16

I think one, it's poverty mentality. Yeah. Um thinking, you know, I I the in in the Hebrew the word the the word most commonly used for worship is always is also the same root word that is most commonly used for work. So work and worship. You know, and so I think we get these weird like spiritual secular categories that aren't like that, like that God, God doesn't separate things out that way. Like everything to him is an opportunity, like the word worship means to ascribe worth. Right? And so if I, you know, feel like a valuable thing to do, like I know that a valuable thing to do is to go like dig up the ground and plant seeds for a harvest physically, you know, in biblical times, then that is an act of ascribing worth and value to an activity or to a function of my daily life. The same is uh singing songs to the Lord, the same is uh writing songs for him and for other people to sing to the Lord, the same is scripting, you know, stage productions and producing them and directing them and all that kind of thing. Like you're you're seeing something that that is valuable that has yet to come, and you're choosing to give time, effort, energy because you are ascribing and and and giving worth to that thing. And I think that's where where we get weird is like uh thinking that only certain activities can honor the Lord and other activities don't. And I think the Bible makes it really clear whatever your hand finds to do, do with all of your might, do it heartily as unto the Lord. And so I think it's really just a uh a theological chasm that I don't know where it originated in the church, other than you know, a a poverty mentality of like where if you're doing something for the Lord, then it must mean that you have to be broke doing it.

SPEAKER_01: 15:16

I think that, but also I think it's hyper-spiritualism.

SPEAKER_00: 15:19

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 15:19

Where it's like, you know, like this whole uh thought process of the the nameless and faceless theology that uh myself and many other worship leaders were brought up in, of like, hey, it's better if you remain if no one knows your name. It's better as a worship leader specifically, if no one you know has any recognition of you. But as you begin to look at scripture, us, I mean, one verse annihilates it, uh, Matthew chapter five, let your light shine before all men, that they may see your good deeds, your good deeds, yeah, and thus glorify your father in heaven.

SPEAKER_02: 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 15:51

So it's like, wait a second. Like, so you know, for artists and creatives who are watching this, you know, my my prayer is like, you know, we would be people who seek to shine for the Lord. And I say this a lot um on my podcast, like um, I coach a lot of worship leaders, a lot of creatives. Like, I've coached hundreds of them and then had hundreds of them come through my my worship teams throughout the years of leading. And I can count on one hand how many of them have been, in my opinion, like just incredibly prideful. Like, wow, you need to be like cut down a couple of notches, and I start praying that they'd be cut down. Yeah, like on one hand, I can count those people. Yeah, I don't have enough hands to count the amount of creators I've worked with and works with or singers and musicians who just have an incredible, like you said, the poverty mindset, small thinking, lack of stewardship, lack of discipline in their life. That's why they're not you know pursuing the things that that they want to do.

SPEAKER_00: 16:41

Yeah. I think of like and I've had the same experience interacting with uh people in various, you know, tranches of ministry, uh you know, creative world, doing some of the stuff that we've done together, uh, and in business, like faith-based business leaders and people who have been, you know, moderately to even extremely successful in business, um, that still they feel like they have to say, well, I'm I'm doing this, you know, things like well, I'm doing this because I'm a sender, right? I need to make lots of money so that I can give money to the things that are actually spiritual and impactful. And that's just another brand of poverty mentality that's devaluing the work that God has called you to, and saying that the only reason God's called me to do this and and you know, is is so that I can fund the work that actually matters. And I think that's just trashy thinking, to be honest. But I think about like the apostle Paul, right? Like Paul was arguably, outside of Jesus, of course, was like the most important person in history for uh Christianity. He was responsible for spreading the gospel message to more people than any other individual person probably ever has, right? And if you broke it down, like would Paul have leveraged like every tool that we have now to accomplish that and market the gospel if he'd had it available to him? Obviously, yes. He would have like, I mean, he was getting on boats and ships and camels and hiking and walking and you know, to get to different cities so that he could get his face in front of people and share the message of Jesus. And so I'm like, yeah, Paul was like a like superior marketer in his day. You know, he wrote letters, he sent them all up. Most of his letters were circular letters that were intended to go to lots of people. So think of that as like a social media post, you know, like and he just he wrote like some of the most like like historically viral pieces of content that anyone has ever written by the inspiration and hand of the Holy Spirit, of course, a lot of them, but he wrote more letters than the ones that are canonized in scripture that also spread the gospel, that shared, you know, all that. And then there were times where he rebuked the recipients of those letters for not giving him money to do it. Where he literally said this, so it's like the most like the most influential person in Christian history outside of Jesus was a businessman. You know, maybe we wouldn't have called it a businessman, maybe we wouldn't think of Paul as an entrepreneur, but if like the activities, the functions, the things that he had to do as a tech maker to do that. Exactly. Yeah, you know, he knew how to build with his hands, but also he approached, you know, uh uh evangelism and spreading the gospel message and founding and planting churches. He approached that with an entrepreneurial mindset. He was intentional when he decided to go to Ephesus, when he decided to go to Philippi. Like he picked places where there was a market available of people who were hungry enough at that moment and that juncture in time that they would receive. Message. It wasn't like he just randomly chose going places. He was intentional. It was calculated.

SPEAKER_02: 20:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 20:06

Um, and so I think uh I just think we have to get over the weirdness. I think Christian creatives, uh, which I'm a like you said at the uh, you know, when we first started this conversation, I'm kind of a unique hybrid and blend, I guess. Like I'm a songwriter, a worship leader, a preacher, and teacher, but also an entrepreneur, business owner. You know, I've got uh three companies right now. Uh one of our companies actually just uh made it on the Inc. 5000. We're the 10th fastest growing privately held real estate company in America. Um, you know, the Lord's really breathing on the things that I'm doing, but it's also like I show up every day and and and work hard and strategize and do intentional things. Um and and I'm not I'm I I don't want to be weird. I look at that as like this is no different than the time, effort, and energy and work that I put in when I was doing more ministry-focused worship-leading things as my full-time gig.

SPEAKER_01: 21:04

Yeah. Which I want to talk about those things. But first, a question Um, if I was staring at you and I had a piece of paper and a pencil, and you saw me writing, but I was still staring at you, what would what would your reaction be? Um I asked because I was I'm looking at you, Paul. I was with a friend of mine recently, and we were talking at a coffee shop and he had a notepad, and suddenly he literally starts doing this. I was so worded. I was like, what do you what would you do if someone did that to you? Has someone done that to you ever?

SPEAKER_00: 21:32

I don't know. I mean, I don't know that that's ever happened to me where someone's like staring me down. I think one, like I'm really impressed because it's like when when someone can just maintain eye contact, right? Because like you think about like the world that we live in, like just maintaining eye contact with a human being for long enough to have a conversation. Like if you if you were to to practice like counting how many times someone looked away when you were talking to them, yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_02: 21:58

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00: 21:59

Right. Um, but I do know like if I'm on a like if I'm on a call with like uh an investor prospect or client prospect, I'm on a Zoom call. Um I'm always writing notes down of everything that they're saying. Yeah. And I try to like let them know ahead of time. Like, like, hey, I'm not distracted. I'm actually, I'm I'm I'm really high, like I'm I'm writing some of the things down you're saying because they're important to me.

SPEAKER_01: 22:22

You're not doing a crossword or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:24

You know, I'm not like staring at my phone texting my wife, like this guy, I can't wait till this call's over. You know, whatever. I don't but to answer your question, I don't know what I would do because I don't know if I've ever had that particular thing happen. But it was a first to me, and I I think I would just assume that if he's staring at me and he's writing notes, it's because something that we're talking about is meaningful enough to him that he wants to remember it, and I would take it as a compliment.

SPEAKER_01: 22:45

Which I assumed that it was just so weird though. I was like, wow, he's he's being moved right now, but just uh completely so um so real quickly, it's kind of um briefs through this section.

SPEAKER_00: 22:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:55

So you have a podcast called Own the Exit, which you can go listen to. It's incredible. Uh you and Aaron Leadale uh do that. But your first exit of a company was that landscaping company. And so, real quickly, you you sold that. Are you willing to say how much you sold it for?

SPEAKER_00: 23:10

Um it's it's it's difficult because I was inexperienced and did not know what I was doing. So I essentially sold off my contracts and then liquidated my equipment. So I didn't actually sell the business holistically. I sold my contracts, consigned them to another regional landscaping firm, and then sold them some of my equipment and liquidated the rest.

SPEAKER_01: 23:33

So a couple thousand, ten plus thousand, whatever. Oh, yeah, more than that. But so you don't want to say, understood, got it, noted.

SPEAKER_00: 23:40

Yeah. Um, but you came because honestly, I don't know exactly because it was by contract, and I and I just didn't know. Yeah, like, but it was enough for me to like live off of me and my wife with zero income for close to two years after I sold it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:56

And you went from North Carolina to Kansas City, right? That was the and you joined staff at the International House of Prayer. Yeah. Um do you remember your first worship experience at the House of Prayer and who was leading worship at that time?

SPEAKER_00: 24:10

Because you know the story.

SPEAKER_01: 24:12

I do.

SPEAKER_00: 24:12

That's why. Yeah, so it was actually way before I ever moved to Kansas City. It was like maybe it was 05, 06, somewhere around then. And I went in on uh for a Friday night service, and um there was this like skinny bearded, weird-looking dude on a guitar. Yes, Lord. Uh no, it was you, man. And honestly, like I had I grew up in a fundamental Baptist church. I had gotten saved not even a year before I came uh out to to Kansas City for the first time to visit the House of Prayer. So it was like the first real exposure that I had to like true, I guess, presence-driven worship, not really singing from a hymnal or like K-Love style contemporary Christian music. So it was deeply, like deeply impactful for me.

SPEAKER_01: 25:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 25:12

Um yeah, uh crazy. And and then just so that everyone knows, you know, full circle, how you know, when I ended up coming on staff, the first person to email me, invite me to be a part of their worship team was you also. And so it was kind of this cool, like, full circle thing that happened. Totally. Of like my first experience at IHOP of you know, of encountering the Lord in worship was Justin Rizzo. And then the first and honestly only team that I was ever on was Justin Rizzo. And then I jokingly say, I grew up, I kicked you off the team and took it from you.

SPEAKER_01: 25:49

That's that's where I was gonna go. And we don't have to have too much of a tell all story about how that went down, but I will say I think we should, but that's a separate podcast. Dude, let's yeah, that is kind of a separate podcast. But just in short, um, you were on my team, we led together um phenomenal workspeater, phenomenal songwriter. We we co-write like hours a week for weeks and months on even the years on, I think we have a season. Um traveled together. Um would you say one of the best steaks you had was when we were together?

SPEAKER_00: 26:19

100% in Brazil, bro. Yeah. Carotista, right? Or São Paulo? It was we were in São Paulo in the in the in the Hilton, um, right on Avenue of the Americas.

SPEAKER_01: 26:30

Oh, you know this. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00: 26:31

Yeah, I've been there a bunch. So but yeah, it was at uh at that that restaurant. It was a Wagyu Tomahawk. It was like four pounds of meat with all the size and everything. The cool thing, I mean, you remember, like the cool thing was like with the exchange rate, hey, dollars to Brazilian hey's, it's like I think it was like the whole meal for both of us was like 70 bucks. Yeah. Which is like crazy because that would have been like a$500 meal here in the US. Totally.

SPEAKER_01: 26:58

So I remember the the the I believe I remember like it's like salt just sprinkling the salt on top of it.

SPEAKER_00: 27:05

Like just melting your mouth.

SPEAKER_01: 27:07

And all the size of just everything that's and you've been to Brazil like a bunch, like how many times, like 20, 30 times?

SPEAKER_00: 27:13

Uh probably not that many. It's been at least 10.

SPEAKER_01: 27:16

Okay, at least 10. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 27:17

Yeah, at least 10.

SPEAKER_01: 27:18

It seemed like when you would leave the team, how often as often as you did there.

SPEAKER_00: 27:21

Well, a lot of times I just lied and I just was taking time off just to hang out with my wife. But go to Brazil again, sorry. No, I but I did some longer trips. Like the longest one I ever did was like I was there for 19 days. Okay, well. 19 days. I did 21 events in 19 days. Remember this. Which is just nuts in like seven different cities or something like that. It was crazy.

SPEAKER_01: 27:44

I remember we were there, we led together, spoke maybe one time each or something like that. But listening to you sing in Portuguese was was very impressive. I'm not gonna lie. But I appreciate that. I mock him sometimes with uh I won't sing it right now on the podcast. I butcher it. But it's it's it's a beautiful language. I mean, all my Portuguese listeners, it's it's beautiful. Um, and so yes, but I was the last person to uh be on the team with you, and then you took the team. It was a whole saga, how that all happened. We'll talk about sometime. Yeah. But then you led worship a couple more years, and then as you already said, you own three companies. And so right now, today, what percentage of your heart would you say is like this entrepreneur raising capital for deals versus the like singer-songwriter Caleb?

SPEAKER_00: 28:31

I think percentage of heart is it's it's I'm undivided. Like, like I like I still have a full heart for all of it. Um I think when you break that down into like acquisition or or or application of time and energy, I'm giving more of my time, effort, and energy in this current season on building and growing the businesses. Um, just because that's where I know like the wind is at my back. Um in um still write songs, still lead worship, still do all those things, uh, and still have a deep heart for it. So I don't I have, I would say I have an undivided heart about it, but the time and effort and energy that I'm giving, I'm I'm trying to go where the wind's blowing. You know what I mean? And and I just know that that's on the business stuff right now.

SPEAKER_01: 29:18

So if someone's like, so that's a beautiful answer, not an easy answer to um, or not an easy answer, not easy life to walk out to say undivided and have it so there's a peace in your soul that I'm sensing, and I know you quite well, so I know that that's there's a peace in your soul. But if someone's like watching this, let's say, and they just, you know, really desire to be a full-time creative, whether that's on Safeta Church or their own their own deal or whatever, yet they have to work their nine to five, and they have to do that. What's like one piece of advice you give somebody who's kind of in that? There's no peace in their soul. They desire to be full-time in the creative space, they have to do their their nine to five job.

SPEAKER_00: 29:59

Yeah, I think the biggest thing for people who are, because what I hear you asking is people who are sort of wrestling with dissatisfaction with the necessity of what they have to do to survive and what they want to do, like the tension that exists between those two. Um, or even what they perceive is like, oh, this doesn't have purpose other than it puts food on my table. This has purpose in that it brings personal fulfillment to my heart, and I also feel like it matters more to Jesus. I would say the number, like the first thing that I would say is like you gotta like eliminate the best you can that thought process and really focus on shifting your mindset because the stuff you're doing over here that's by necessity is just as holy uh to the Lord as the thing over here that makes you more excited and sometimes even more so because doing the thing that like showing up like diligently with integrity to the thing that you don't want to do, like that is like like the that matters to the Lord. Um if you only ever get to do the thing that you think you really want to do, then you'll run into what I ran into, right? When I transitioned from running a landscaping business to being in full-time ministry, I thought, man, that would be amazing if I could ever do that. And then less than a year in, I'm like, man, I miss those days on the lawnmower with podcasts in my ear. Like I felt like there were days where I was closer to Jesus there than I am now, because now that it's my job, it's become the thing that I have to do.

SPEAKER_01: 31:34

Totally, totally.

SPEAKER_00: 31:34

Rather, and so the other thing that I would say that was really helpful to my heart when I was like when the Lord was making it clear that that that I was to transition to put more of my effort and energy and focus on building businesses, uh, was Zechariah 6. And it's uh it was the passage where it says there's one who will sit on the throne, he will be both both a king and a priest, and there will be harmony between the two roles, or the council of peace between the two roles. And I think we sometimes put like the king, you know, like the kingly identity of like build you know, building, commanding armies, acquiring land, like all the things that a king does, ruling over, you know, something like a tangible kingdom. Yeah. Um, and then a priest, priestly role is like facilitating you know, God and man meeting together. So a songwriter, you know, facilitating the church meeting with God through the lyric and the melody that they write, right? That's a priestly function. But you know, like God actually gives like very clear language in Zechariah 6 of it isn't that those two things have to be separate, it's that there should actually be harmony between those two roles. And there can be, and his design is often that there would be harmony between those two roles.

SPEAKER_02: 32:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 32:58

Um, which means sometimes one of them will be at the forefront and the other one is the background vocal. And then the other, you know, that then in the next season, the other one is is is the lead and the other is the background vocal, but they harmonize with each other, they move together.

SPEAKER_01: 33:15

I've caught myself, I was preaching recently at a church in Pennsylvania, um, and I caught myself doing this, and I vowed I wouldn't do this. Um, saying the term full-time ministry, yeah. You know, and and you said it earlier, and I understand what that means. It means you're, you know, most of what you give yourself to is it a church or a nonprofit or missions work or whatever it is. But I I've really tried to like reframe that and shift my language to uh we're all called to be in full-time ministry. Yeah. Like you're a CEO, you're a barista, you're a stay-at-home mom. Yeah. I mean, all of us are in this thing called full-time ministry because I think you and you kind of hinted at it, you know, for a lot of people that I coach and I work with, even they're a worship pastor at a church, and they're they're either like not paid or they get a small stipend because they have to have that nine to five because the church can't afford them. And, you know, encouraging them and saying, like, dude, you are in full-time ministry. I understand that you want it to be more of to be with your guitar and your voice on Sundays and you know, whatever, but just because you show up to uh a church with four walls doesn't necessarily mean that that's even like the the best ministry you'll ever do. And you hints at it as well. I I've I gotta be careful how I say this, but I I've probably seen more businessmen, CEOs, who have a real, genuine connection with Jesus in their boardroom with their staff around the table. Uh I mean, I've I've met plenty of pastors who have that as well. But man, sometimes I find it easier for businessmen to run an excellent company with Jesus at the center than it is for pastors to, you know, who get caught up in all kinds of other stuff and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, we're we're all in full-time ministry, whether you receive a paycheck from that or what you devote the fullness of your time to, and I love that that that's peaceful in your soul.

SPEAKER_00: 34:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:59

You know, and I I find even, you know, leaving full-time staff of uh the worst-leading position I had nearly six and a half years ago, going through that wrestle of like, man, this was this was my everything. I was doing, you know, that stuff like 24, 25 hours a week, leading worship and and mentoring and all that, to suddenly, you know, okay, I'm still writing, still doing music, but now I'm writing a show or producing a movie, or let's be honest, most of my time is raising money to produce the movies. Yeah. And and finding peace in that, you know, so no matter where people find themselves, um, at the end of the day, peace in your soul is what you need to be searching for. Yeah. Um, not, you know, what it looks like.

SPEAKER_00: 35:41

Yeah, and I think uh specifically, this is just a thought that I that I've uh really wrestled with, prayed through, and I feel like I have like almost like clarity, at least 90% on is I think the the the the church or kind of the the the the the Christian missions machine, I would call it, does a great disservice specifically to young men calling them into ministry right out of high school or right out of college before they've ever actually had to feel the pressure of experiencing like life in the real world, like working, making money, like like like those things like we devalue those so much, but they're like practical necessities for everyone. And so then it breeds this kind of entitlement culture where then you have those amongst that larger pool, there's the smaller pool of those that are creatives and artists and builders that now have this entitlement thing of like the reason that my art or my idea or my creativity is not going anywhere is because nobody else will believe in me enough to give me the money for it or give me the whatever, or it just like all of this stuff, right? And it's like, well, that's because when you were 18, instead of like going and getting like a practical functional degree that would help you get a job to make money or help you build a business where the goal was to actually like provide for a family and make money, yeah. You went and you asked a bunch of people to give you money so that you could kind of do whatever you want and call it like spiritual. And now you you never actually were forced into like the crucible of like what does it mean to become a responsible whole man?

SPEAKER_02: 37:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 37:50

You know, like what does it mean to like make sacrifice, to carry heavy burdens with grace and with a smile on your face, and like with a positive, like everything's gonna be okay. And then, you know, anytime a difficult season hits or a crisis hits or whatever, like you're like you don't know what to do. And then you see, like in that, you've got those young men, and I'm talking specifically to young men because I because I I'm I'm a I'm a complementarian and I am unapologetic about that. I think men and women have like distinct God-given roles, and they're you know, men are more wired to do certain things, and women are more wired to do certain things, and I'm unapologetic in that belief. Um, I don't think equality of value equals equality of function. Um, but men, young men specifically, kind of get lured into the idealism of ministry, missions, all that kind of stuff. And it's to the detriment of them actually growing up and becoming men. Yeah, and then they're not getting married until they're mid-30s, they get married, the divorce rate's higher. Yeah, they're like they they don't know how to take like take care of a family, they don't know how to do any of that stuff, and they hit this massive crisis of meaning, and you've got a huge movement of people that are deconstructing and moving away from the faith because now they're mad at God because of the decisions they made when they were 18 and 19 that the church and the missions machine lured them into. And so, like, the what's the way out? Well, number one, I think like you can't blame anybody but you, dude. Like massive self agency. Number one is like accept that you are where you are in your life right now. If you're a creative and you and you've not been able to accomplish the things you want to, then the reason for that is you. Your current state is the sum of the decisions that you've made up until this point. You can make different decisions, but if you Waste time blaming it on somebody else or that ministry that took advantage of you or that you know, whatever it is. If you use if you spend any of your energy like exporting blame to some other entity, then that energy is not spent on reclaiming your power to change your current situation.

SPEAKER_01: 40:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:19

Because if you if you don't accept that it's your fault, then you won't have the power to change it.

SPEAKER_01: 40:26

So good. So good. I can already see the hate happening in the comments about the uh complimentarian uh comment. But you guys can sort it out.

SPEAKER_00: 40:34

Come at me, come at me, come at me. I got Bible for you.

SPEAKER_01: 40:37

No, but dude, that's so good. That's a certain I know we've talked a lot about this. Um, so good. And I want to talk more about that. Um, we do need to wrap here soon. And I want to make sure we can talk about this. Um, but that it's seriously so good. And I mentioned this in another podcast, but you know, even the term, so what we walked through with everything that we walked through with the ministry that we were a part of for a lot of years, you know, um, and I've said this, I'll keep saying this. I I don't like the term deconstruction. Um, I I thought about it, I was like, oh man, like, you know, and even you know, seeing people at Hillsong, what they went through there, you know, I was like, oh man, like, and we all have friends who have deconstructed themselves somewhere into oblivion that it's like where there's nothing left, yeah, um, in my humble opinion. I like the term detangling. Yeah. And I've really embraced that in my life, my wife and I, to like, and I think any wise person um who has that self-agency who you know who wants to be a better person will regularly detangle the crap, the stuff that's happening in your life. You don't need a scandal, you don't need to lose your job, you don't need to have any you know big, huge thing happen in your life to know that like figuring figuring out that you can't just figure everything out in between your earlobes. You have to have other people, whether it's friends, therapists, mentors, whatever, speaking into your life to detangle what life will throw at you. Yeah. You know, because you have the enemy, you have uh just providence, and you have the discipline of God, you know, and the leadership of God, which sometimes doesn't go the way we think it should, you know. And um anyway, it's a lot, a lot there.

SPEAKER_00: 42:08

That's that's that's like back in the day, old like Windows computers before we all got smart and bought Macs. Yes, you like like sometimes your your your operating system would like slow down or freeze up and you had to like defrag. Oh yeah. You remember like having to like defrag?

SPEAKER_01: 42:24

Yes, it was horrible.

SPEAKER_00: 42:24

I might be aging myself a little bit. I'm not that old, okay? But but like that that to me is what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01: 42:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 42:30

Is like like the computer's not broken. Like your faith is not broken, God's certainly not broken. Um the the core tenets of your belief system aren't broken. It's it's it's the gaps that you've allowed to show up that are that are that are causing the the problem and the pain.

SPEAKER_02: 42:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 42:49

And so you have to assess and say, okay, what have I attached myself to that's not the Lord? Yeah. Yeah. You know? What have I put my hope in that's not the Lord? Yeah. And and then and then defrag or detangle from those things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 43:04

You know I love that. Um, so something that's coming up just in a couple short weeks that you and I are both a part of um is a conference or gathering. Uh do we say conferences anymore? I don't know. A gathering called the Creative Legacy Gathering. And it's in Kansas City, Missouri. It's March 19th, 20th, and 21st. Yeah. So it starts in a Thursday night, all day Friday, and then all day Saturday. And you are a uh a co-host with me at that event, as well as our friend Jordan Marcott, who'll be a part of that this year. Uh so excited, first of all, just to have you on board. You've spoken, I think, every year that I've had it. This is my fourth year of doing it. And just really quickly to kind of set the stage of why why this event, uh, I started this conference for entrepreneurs and creatives about four years ago. Yeah. Not because I was looking for something else to do. I have a lot in my life, I don't need more things to do. And uh running conferences is no small task as well. Yeah. I've I've I've learned. But uh, I started it because I felt the Lord prompt me to do it. I gave him three little fleeces like this needs to happen, this person needs to do this, and this person needs to do this, and all three of them happened. And I was like, shoot, I guess I'm I'm doing this conference. Yeah. And so it's been, every year has been unique and it's been amazing. We've had some amazing people, uh, John and Stacey Eldridge, Amanda Cook, John Mark McMillan, uh, Andy Squires, uh, Josh Scott from JHS Pedals, um, yourself. Um, and so coming up this year, you're you're hosting this conference with me. And really, our heart in doing this is to see um Christian creatives and Christian entrepreneurs cultivate internal strength in their heart and their soul to then fuel the external calling.

SPEAKER_00: 44:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 44:39

So give me a second. Why did you agree to even kind of co-host with this with me this year?

SPEAKER_00: 44:43

Well, one, I hate big events um because I think they specifically big Christian events. Because I feel like they're just, you know, three, four-day spiritual hype fests. And it's like there's one or two things that you can do. You can either just cancel events in your mind and just not be a part of them, or you can say, like, how can I be a part of like reshaping the, you know, what events actually like what the end game is. And I think that's what you know, as you and I've talked even over the last four years and I've observed um the Creative Legacy conference, like it's not that. It's not that spiritual hype fest that you show up and you, you know, you get fired up or whatever for Jesus, and then three days later you're just back to like your same like crappy life, you know, that you left to go there and escape from. And it's just like a three-day retreat escape from a life that you mostly don't like. Yeah. I felt every year that I've been a part of it that I've walked away with more internal strength to walk out the actual calling on my life, you know. Um and I think it's there's so much, yes, like like holy spiritual inside and moments to like be with God in those three days, you know, to heal the heaviness, to, to, to, to have those moments of retreat, which I think are valuable and important. But then also to really be able to walk away with with practical and tactical things that you can implement into your life and your creative journey or your entrepreneurial journey that that move the needle in the areas that you think the most about and actually care the most about. Um and so to me, I I I am excited to be a part of helping to host the event this year because I've been able to experience the event, you know, the last several years and play a you know a role as a speaker and that kind of stuff. But but being able to like be on the side of like delivering, you know, helping to deliver that value to other Christian entrepreneurs and creatives uh is that's what excites me.

SPEAKER_02: 47:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 47:08

To help them heal what's heavy, fix what's broken, and actually walk away with a real plan for their next season and real steps that they can take.

SPEAKER_01: 47:15

And so we have some surprises, we won't give them all the way here, but it's not just gonna be a standard um, you know, show up at a big building, sit down, worship, teaching. We have some surprises we're gonna throw in there that we're not we're not gonna even talk about right now. But um if you're interested in coming to this, we have uh Joelle Barnes, formerly with Mav City, who's gonna be there, Andy Squires, uh Caleb Edwards will be there, myself, Jordan Marquot, uh Joshua Heath Scott, uh Wayne Johnson will be there, as well as Jeff Goines. Some people might not know who Jeff Coins is, but Jeff wrote a book that was literally like my Bible for about two years after I left being a full-time worship pastor, just you know, and searching kind of, you know, what does my life look like now? He wrote a book called Real Artists Don't Starve. And if you're watching this, whether you come to the conference or not, grab that book. I've actually talked about that before on the podcast. But Jeff is coming to do a keynote on the topic of that book. And I just was talking to him about this event, he is super fired up about coming and sharing on that. And so if you guys are interested in coming to this or getting more information on this, you can click the link in the show notes or go to creativelegacy.org. Um, it's gonna be an amazing time just in a couple of weeks here in Kansas City, March 19th through 21st. Um, anything else you want to say about the gathering?

SPEAKER_00: 48:30

No, I think if if if you if you feel like you are like 50-50 on the fence of of coming in March, then just just do it. Like you won't regret it. Um you know, you have to as a as an as a as a Christian entrepreneur and and a Christian creative myself, there aren't very many, if any, other events that I know of um that are actually as catered to specifically who I am and what I need as this one. You know, and so if you're gonna go to one event this year, then come to Creative Legacy. And I'm not just saying that because I'm helping to host it, like um I I hope you don't mind if I say this, like Justin and Firelight, the team put you know, putting on, like, they're not paying me anything. I'm doing it voluntarily because I believe in it and want to. So whether you show up or not, I have nothing to gain other than to say, being there, uh, I'm I'm gonna take three days out of my, you know, working on my three, you know, companies to be there and to pour in and to be poured into. And so I think uh everyone listening to or watching this should do the same.

SPEAKER_01: 49:52

Yeah, definitely. And if you haven't heard Caleb speak, um go check out on the exit, first of all, but then show up here in case either is no streaming available, unfortunately, this year, uh maybe next year, but you definitely want to hear Caleb speak. I've heard multiple people, a couple pastors even say that he's one of the best speakers they've ever heard, like better than themselves as preachers. And so that's a huge, a huge statement. Um, dude, thanks for your time, man. Thanks for hanging out, being on the podcast. Um go give him a follow on socials, check out his podcast on the exit, and join us here uh in March at Creative Legacy. We'll see you guys next time.