The Rizzcast Podcast
Exploring the intricate life of being an entrepreneur and creative.
For over 20 years, Justin Rizzo has been a full-time worship leader, songwriter, and filmmaker. He is passionate about authentic worship and creativity. Justin also dedicates himself to raising up and coaching worship leaders and creatives of all types, nurturing their growth and success. In addition, he owns Firelight Creative, a production company that has produced multiple award-winning musicals and films, and hosts gatherings for creatives both online and in person. Justin travels extensively to lead worship and speak at events around the world.
The Rizzcast Podcast
054 He toured with Chris Tomlin for 17 Years (and then walked away)
What happens when God calls you away from the very success you've worked your whole life to achieve?
For Jesse Reeves, co-writer of worship anthems like "How Great Is Our God," "I Speak Jesus," and "Lord I Need You," that question became the defining challenge of his faith journey.
After 17 years of touring with Chris Tomlin, playing to packed arenas, and helping create some of the most sung worship songs in modern church history, Reeves found himself increasingly troubled by a sermon illustration about King David's anointing.
In this deeply vulnerable conversation, Jesse shares how walking away from music entirely led to "the dark years" - a season where he wouldn't even allow worship music in his home. But through that wilderness, God was preparing him for a profound rediscovery of authentic ministry.
Whether you're a worship leader, songwriter, or simply someone trying to follow Jesus faithfully, Jesse's journey will challenge your assumptions about success and inspire you to examine where your true treasure lies. Sometimes the greatest act of worship is walking away from the stage to care for the sheep.
▶️ ABOUT
Justin Rizzo is a worship leader, songwriter, and filmmaker. He is passionate about authentic worship and creativity, focused on bringing glory to Jesus. Justin also dedicates himself to raising up and coaching worship leaders and creatives of all types, nurturing their growth and success. In addition, he owns Firelight Creative, a production company that has produced multiple award-winning musicals and films, and hosts gatherings for creatives both online and in person. Justin travels extensively to lead worship and speak at events worldwide.
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Hey guys, welcome back to another episode. I'm so excited about the guest who is on the show today. He is a writer that you may or may not have heard of, but you have for sure, if you have been a Christian for the last 20 to 30 years and you've gone to church more than once or even one time, you have heard a song that he has been a part of creating and he's been a part of writing. He and I have written several times and it's just a fantastic experience writing with him and the creativity that flows from him. But what I love the most, and really why I wanted to bring him on the show, was because he's just got the character to back up the gifting and the talent that he has, and so it's my pleasure to welcome to the show Jesse Reeves. Hey man, welcome in. Thank you. The crowd goes wild.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Justin.
Speaker 1:So excited to have you on here, man. I appreciate your time. So again, if you guys are not aware of who he is, if you know songs like how Great Is Our God? I Speak, Jesus, Lord, I Need you. Let God Arise Our God. I mean, I'm probably missing like 20 to 30 top CCLI songs that you have a hand on. Are there any other ones you want to mention? No, man, you're doing a good job. You're doing a good job, Okay, and so we'll talk about songwriting here in a little bit. I know a lot of my listeners are worship leaders and songwriters, and so they'll kill me if I don't ask you a couple of questions about that. But before we get into that, I would love to just kind of hear a bit of who you are. Give us kind of a bit of your story, oh man.
Speaker 2:I don't know how far back you want to go. Basically I live in Texas. I live in Austin, Born and raised in Texas, and so I don't know where your listeners hail from.
Speaker 1:But All of them are in Texas. It's big enough.
Speaker 2:Pretty much everything that non-Texans like have stereotypes about Texans. That's how I was raised. I was raised on a ranch. My dad was a rancher. I was raised showing Angus cattle, showed Angus cattle my whole life, stock shows, rodeos, all that stuff. I actually yeah, my dad's a Vietnam vet and a cowboy, so, as you can imagine, he's real tough.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of how I was raised. And then, when I was 15, I met Jesus and I, literally I just prayed September 23rd in 1990. I prayed God, whatever you want me to do with my life, that's what I want to do. I had no idea what that meant and so, yeah, it's a long story, but I got into music and grew my hair out, which my dad was not real happy about. I did ask my dad one time if I could get my ears pierced when I was in high school, and he said, son, you can get your ears pierced if you let me pierce them with a 22. He said if you're man enough to stand there like this and let me shoot a hole through your ear, you're man enough to wear an earring.
Speaker 1:Very Texas response and I was like okay.
Speaker 2:Well, that means I will not get an earring. So when I got out of the house, I got four. When I got out of the house, I got four Okay. Yeah, so that's the very short version.
Speaker 1:So September 23rd 1990, that's when you met the Lord.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was raised in a really strong Christian house, but we were raised in the Bible church, which I say now. We were raised with the Father, son and Holy Bible, so I hadn't really experienced the Spirit before and hadn't felt anything for sure. I was raised with really strong theology. Memorizing scripture how fun is this? I grew up in what is called BMA Bible Memory Association so from the time we were little, like when I was a little kid, we had the ABC book that we had to memorize.
Speaker 2:A all we, like sheep, have gone astray. Each one has turned to his own way. B be ye, kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another. C children, obey your parents and the Lord. For this is right Like. I learned a lot of scripture, and even in high school I had to say seven verses. It was called an assignment. I had to say seven verses to my mom on Friday, or I couldn't go out on the weekend and check this out. You could only make two mistakes out of all seven verses. If you made more than two mistakes, it meant that you hadn't studied your Bible enough, and so that meant I couldn't go out on the weekends.
Speaker 1:Was your school saying this or your parents?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no no. This was just in my house. Wow, that's intense man.
Speaker 2:So I know it was intense Now. I mean, back then I resented it and I developed a really good short-term memory so I could just memorize that and go say it to my mom and then go out Resented it growing up. But now, being 50, I still remember all those scriptures and it's priceless to me. I absolutely love it. I hated it at the time, wow. But yeah, september 23rd of 1990, I actually was at a Christian concert. I went with the Baptist church. That was my rebellion. My rebellion was that I would go hang out with the Baptist. Wow, and I went to a Christian rock concert and I met Jesus Like I literally got saved that night.
Speaker 1:Who was playing? Was it a large show?
Speaker 2:Oh no, that's part of the story. It was a local band called Judah and the lead singer was also playing bass guitar, and so I get saved. That night, two weeks later, I was at the mall with my mom and we went in this store called what was it called, structure, which was like the male version of Express Okay, and the lead singer of Judah was working in Structure. That tells you how big they were. But I went and introduced myself. I was like hey man, I got saved at y'all's concert two weeks ago.
Speaker 2:And I was like I don't know if this is crazy, but if if you ever wanted to just sing and not play bass, I'd love to audition for your band. And he kind of got this like ghost, look on his face, he goes bro, I've been praying about that for two weeks, wow. And so I auditioned. So, yeah, it was a little less than two weeks. So two weeks from the time I got saved, I was playing in the band that was playing when I got saved wow, what a story yeah, it's crazy you had already played bass, obviously oh yeah, I played.
Speaker 2:I played bass starting in eighth grade in a party band with all my friends called Carpe Diem we were huge, we played birthday parties Wow.
Speaker 1:So your love for music began with the bass and then continued with bass.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I played bass because I and to this day man, I mean I played 17 years on the road with Chris and I'm an I'm an OK bass player. I'm I'm just average at it. I played bass just good enough to hang out with my friends that are good musicians.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so how long were you in this band with this guy?
Speaker 2:So that was in high school and we signed a record deal. When we were in college we all went to the same college, dallas Baptist University and, yeah, we signed a record deal, went to Nashville, made a record.
Speaker 1:Did you graduate first or no?
Speaker 2:No, we were still in college when we did that. Oh, okay, Gotcha. So yeah, we changed our name to Between Thieves and made a couple records and then I graduated in 97. No, I graduated in 96. No, I graduated in 96, met my wife the summer after I graduated and we got married. And I was like, guys, I got to get a real job and I can't keep playing music, so I quit that band. We got married July 19th 1997. 97 in August I got a phone call out of the blue from this country boy in grand Saline, Texas, named Chris Tomlin that wanted to put a band together. And he got my name from somebody and I was like, nah, man, I can't, I just got married, Wow. And he was like, well, I need somebody this weekend, Can you play this weekend? And I was like sure, it's like, Can you play this weekend? And I was like sure, it's like what do you? What kind of music is it? And he said it's worship music. And I had never heard of worship music.
Speaker 2:In my defense in 1997, worship music wasn't really a thing.
Speaker 1:Sure, sure, sure.
Speaker 2:You know, I was raised with this guy that stood up there that he was called a music minister. We didn't have worship leaders. Yeah, so I't have worship leaders. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I told Chris yes we went to I think it was like Lufkin, texas, and played some event called like a Hot Hearts or something like that True Love Waits or something and Chris had a song called we Fall Down. That the first time I ever heard the song was the first time I played it and it was weird. It was like during that song I felt like the Lord said to me this is what I've been training you for, wow. And I was like, okay, and yeah, I played. From that moment I played with him for the next 17 years.
Speaker 1:Crazy. And when was because? Was Hillsong late 90s that they were kind of coming Like Shout to the Lord Darlene Sheck and all that? Or was that early 2000s?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was all around the same time. Not United, but yeah, Shout to the Lords was for sure. That time, yeah, I feel like man. Late 90s there was like a wave that I'm truly grateful to have been a part of. It was a wave of young people that were, you know, in England. You had Redmond and Tim Hughes and Stuart Townend and like delirious, all kind of rising up and in the States you had Chris and Charlie.
Speaker 2:Hall and David Crowder and like this wave, and then Australia. You know you had Darlene at that time and I feel like there was like this groundswell that we all got to ride this wave for a second, and I'm super grateful for it, but we didn't know what we were doing at the time. You know, it was just like I don't know. It's crazy.
Speaker 1:Do you remember the I think it was the vineyard the hungry record. It was alive, of course. Yeah, what's her name? It's on the tip of my brain, the girl who sang that. She was really young. I think she wrote it and saying it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I can't remember the girl who sang that. She was really young, I think she wrote it and sang it. Yeah, I cannot remember her name, so I'll wait for you. Yeah, that's a good song. Um, kathy kathy man, I should know this. I don't know this, but I remember being a teenager man and that that album came out and just there was some songs on that thing that's oh, that had uh this is the air I breathe on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had breathe on it. Yeah, another killer song, um, and I remember being in high school at that time and just being massively affected. You know, I remember when blessed be their, your name, redmond came out, you give and take away all these songs that just were, you know, giving language to to my life in god. So, as you're with chris 97, first, you know, concert you guys play or whatever, when, when did his his rise kind of began like did he have like when he signed, or do you meet ed cash? And then kind of took it from there like what, what?
Speaker 2:was that? Uh man, what we did for the first four years is we would play weekends and we play summer camps. We played like 13 summer camps in a row, and Chris did have a song called Forever that Michael W Smith put on his first worship record, so that is kind of like this little hint.
Speaker 2:And at that time, I don't know if you remember, but Christian radio would not play worship music. They would play worship music, like on Sunday morning from 9 to 9.15. You know, it was like this small little thing. But then when Michael W Smith did Forever and it had such a good response with that worship record, I think radio stations started going, oh, people want to hear this. So that kind of happened. Radio stations started going, oh, people want to hear this. So that kind of happened. And then, yeah, for the first four years I played with Chris. He couldn't pay me anything, so I taught elementary school I taught second grade for two years and third grade for two years.
Speaker 1:You were a teacher. Yeah, dude, that's crazy. I could see that. I could see that.
Speaker 2:My last year teaching was when we got asked to go on tour with Delirious and I missed 40 days of school as a teacher. But my principal was okay with it because my wife was my full-time substitute.
Speaker 1:She was like, yeah, it's fine Wow.
Speaker 2:So I never went back. Actually, wow, so that would have been like 97, 98, like 2000. And then in 2002, we wrote how Great Is Our God, and that I tell people we spent the next, you know, 15 years chasing that song around the world that's kind of what. And we didn't know what we were doing when we did it. This is when we were playing summer camps, you know, and we're like man, we got to have something like simple, that kids don't hate us, you know. And so first time we ever played how Great was at a summer camp.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you ever saw that Babylon Bee article where it talked about the worship leader that got caught in the vortex between the chorus and the bridge and he couldn't get out of it. And that happened the first time. We played Like we would end the song and the kids would just be like name above all names, go back into it. And so we would go back into it and end it and the kids would be like how great is our? And we're like at the end of it we were just like, wow, that was cool.
Speaker 2:I don't know that At the end of it we were just like, wow, that was cool. I don't know, that song seems like it's kind of special, but we had no clue what. God was going to do.
Speaker 1:Which makes it all the more beautiful. And I know I want to ask you a question about how great. But even talking with you. And then Dustin, for I Speak Jesus, that's even how that song even came about, if I'm not mistaken. Mistaken, the story goes you guys were some kind of like writing training or something like that. And there's a couple ladies, I think, and it was like, hey, what does jesus mean to you? Or what do you want to do with jesus? Like, oh, my family. And on the streets he went to the next lady, hey for you. And and he's just like writing stuff down. You guys crafted the song very laissez-faire, never expecting it. Is that right? Am I getting that right?
Speaker 2:it's close it's. It's all this, all the right elements, okay, um, um. That man, that's kind of you skipped a whole bunch to get to that song. But yeah, that song happened at a a uh songwriters camp, basically, for it was in calispell. Montana and dustin and I were brought in to be the pro writers, you know, and then people of calispell that wanted to learn how to write songs signed up and came to this thing, so dustin and I got assigned to the same group. I didn't even know dust at that time. Really, now he's a dear friend, I love him. It was me and Dustin and five moms from Kalispell when we were all in the large group. That's a big right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's seven people. When we were all in the large group beforehand, the guy that was kind of the pastor of it, he asked me. He said, hey, will you pray over everybody before we go to our groups? And so I just kind of always put my hands up and I just said I just want to speak the name of Jesus over everybody as they're going into their groups. Jesus be with them. When we get into the room, dustin goes. That's the song we need to write.
Speaker 2:And I was like what he goes? I speak Jesus. I was like, okay, and so, yes, that's where it started. Into your Jesus for my family was the last lyric that was written. We had the whole song written and we were Shout Jesus from the mountains, jesus in the streets, jesus in the darkness, over every enemy, jesus, I speak the holy name. And we were just like man, we need like for my family, four syllables. But we couldn't think of anything and I can't remember who it was. It may have been. One of the moms said what about for my family? And we kind of had this conversation like that's not really a cool lyric, but I have four kids, I want to speak it over my family. Dustin's like I want to speak it over my family. And so we're just like, yeah, let's go with it. And what's crazy is, to this day, that's the lyric that people always comment about.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 1:I love that. Yeah, sorry, I jumped like 25 years ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you really did, but that's okay, All right, thanks for coming.
Speaker 1:Everybody no but take me to um. If you remember how great is our God. So you said the first time you guys played it. These summer camps, whatever but how did?
Speaker 2:that song had different verses and it was more like most modern worship songs today. They're all about us, like what god does for us, and, uh, our pastor. Well, he wasn't our pastor at the time, but louis giglio spoke heavily into chris's music early on and he said man, I would just encourage y'all to go back and rewrite the verses of that and try to write a song that has nothing to do with us. Wow, I think that's the best advice ever.
Speaker 1:I think that's kind of what got breathed on it.
Speaker 2:So it's straight out of Psalm 104. What's funny? Here's a funny story about that. After that song came out and started getting big, we got an email from this guy. That was like wicked smart. You could tell he's like a PhD in theology and it was like a long email and the premise was that God is. The second verse says he wraps himself in light and darkness tries to hide. The premise of his email was that God is light. So if you're saying that he wraps himself in light and darkness tries to hide, the premise of his email was that God is light. So if you're saying that he wraps himself in light, you're saying he wraps himself in himself, which diminishes his character, and blah, blah. I mean it was like super smart and I said I asked Chris. I said, hey, can I email this guy back? He's like, yeah, I don't care, I don't know what to say to him. I was like, all right, so I emailed him back. I was like hey, bro, thanks for your email.
Speaker 2:See Psalm 104, verse 2, that says he wraps himself in light, send. So I always use that in songwriting classes with people. I'm like the more you can use scripture, scripture defends itself. If you have a song that actually, if you write any song, people are going to criticize it. But especially if it starts doing something, you have a lot of critics. If it's rooted in Scripture and somebody argues with it, you can go yeah, okay, I don't understand it either, but the Bible says that he wraps himself in light, so we're going to sing about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you changed the verses after he gave you opinion on it, but the chorus and the bridge were you and Chris, and I think there's another one or two writers on that right. Were you guys sitting around? Well, so yeah.
Speaker 2:Chris and I wrote the verses and the chorus and then, when we went to record it, when we were doing the arriving record ed cash, that's when we met ed and ed said man, I feel like there's like one more gear. And he just started singing name above all names and we're like yeah, that'll work in the studio in the studio. Yeah, crazy and like pre in the during, like pre-pro wow. So yeah, it was. That song was like easy but so kind of take me through then.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it changed chris's life changed your life so when you guys start, you know there's no longer summer camps on the weekends and you're teaching, you know, monday through friday, um, when you you're like hey to your, you know your wife, your four, your four kids like, hey, I'm going, uh, on tour. How did that happen? How was the family, when you're, you know they're at home, you're on a tour bus, you know doing all these nights, what was that process like early on?
Speaker 2:Oh, bro, that's a deep question. It was good because my wife loves Jesus and we were on the same page as far as the mission, especially early on, but it's also why, now, in 2025, as an empty nester, that my wife and I are in marriage counseling. Wife and I are in marriage counseling. So I think it's also a lot of PTSD from her being a single mom all those years raising all these kids. So, yeah, I don't know, man, that's sticky, it's a slippery slope. It's a really slippery slope when you're saying, yeah, I'm doing all this for Jesus, but you're neglecting your family. Wow, actually better now than we probably should have gone 20 years ago. So it's kind of one of those things that I would say on paper we're probably fixed, but I'm like, nah, let's, let's keep going, it's too good.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's, that's deep and thank you for sharing that and definitely something I think um a lot of people, whether it's they're high achiever type A personality or they have a huge success story and whatever can relate to at varying levels. Obviously, you and I both know people that the ministry I mean. Thank God you guys caught it and you fixed the problem, but it's ruined. The ministry, the dedication to Jesus, the sharing of his kingdom and Jesus' teachings around the world, or singing or whatever, has ruined plenty of marriages and so it's.
Speaker 2:I can relate to that. There's so many things that you can get into about that. I'll say this Our mutual friend, john Hartley, is the reason that I do music. I quit playing for Chris on January 8th 2014. I'm not really good with dates. I remember that because it was Elvis's birthday and I quit music for three years and I was that's what my wife would call the dark years, because I really lost my identity. My whole identity was wrapped up in music and I was just like man I'm not doing it anymore, and so there's so many things behind that. But three years went by. I was super jaded, didn't write music, didn't listen to worship music. I didn't let worship music be played in my house. My kids would listen to worship music like they were doing cocaine, like with a lookout, like dad's home, dad's home.
Speaker 2:Turn it off, wow, like that's how bad it was it was pretty dark and uh, three years later, uh, a guy named brian ortiz called me from bec and he said hey man, would you be interested in being a songwriter for us? And I was like nope. For for so many reasons. Number one is because bec was a part like they're a daughter company of Tooth Nail and all I knew about Tooth Nail back in the day was like ska music and punk music, rockers. I was like I don't write that stuff and they were like no, we're starting this new thing called BEC. They said would you fly to Nashville and just let us take you to dinner? I was like sure, so fly to Nashville and just let us take you to dinner. I was like sure. So I flew to Nashville, we went to dinner.
Speaker 2:I'd never met John. I knew Brian, but we're sitting there and John is in his 60s or right at 60. He's British. You know John, but I'm explaining this to your listeners. But John was a part of helping start Kingsway in England, so he signed Delirious and Matt Redman and Tim Hughes and then when he moved to the States he helped kind of start Integrity. So your early Don Moen and Paul Balash and Rita Springer and all that.
Speaker 2:And now John was a part of BC and we're sitting at dinner and I was quietly going to tell them no, and John says mate, you know what I've, what I've observed? I was like sorry for any breaths, that's a terrible accent. He said you know what I've observed? And I was like what he said I've noticed that it takes man seven years to figure out what God is doing and then man starts trying to replicate it and it turns into a business and God moves on to something else. And I was like oh, oh, no, like it was like I don't know what happened, like something in me, like was like I got to process what you just said.
Speaker 2:At the end of that dinner I said, hey, I'll sign with BEC on two conditions. I said number one I want a key man clause that's attached to that guy. If he leaves, I'm out of a deal. They're like okay. And I said and number two is I want to do it on a handshake. And John actually started crying at the dinner table. He's like mate, people don't do that anymore. I was like it's the only way I'm going to do it. I'm not going to do it unless we trust each other. So I told him I'd do it for a year, and that was seven years ago Still there. So I love those people.
Speaker 1:Wow, john Harley is one of the good ones, man, he is one of the good ones. I just talked to him last two weeks ago on the phone Again, so much we could talk about the business I'm not against it being a business but what comes along with that so easily is just not kingdom business in my humble opinion. And John is just one of the guys who just carries the heart of the lord for the singers, for the musicians, for the worship leaders, the writers. Um, he was talking to me.
Speaker 1:Talking to me about how he was talking to some pretty, you know, high level people recently about the desperate need for pastoring to happen with these young kids who you know get quick success. Then they're on a tour bus, you know, late at night after they do a concert or a show, no idea what they're doing, and then just the enemy gets and he's like we need to pastor people like the next generation, like desperately, and just all the things that make me feel like you, I want to be around you, I want to be so. I totally resonate with that. So we don't have to go there if you don't want to. But when you left tomlin january way, january 8, 14, what had what had transpired to kind of push you. Was it family pressure, road pressure, kids getting older, like what was a kind of a couple combination of things, if you will, in the share.
Speaker 2:Man, I struggle. I can just answer you honestly, but I don't want to. I also want to be above reproach and I don't want to tear down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't want to Let me think. All right, I'll just. I'll just preface it with this like this is. This is was my journey, this is what god was calling me to 2011. I was training for an iron man and I I spent four years where I was doing iron man races, had my head shaved and leg shaved and worked out four hours a day Just stupid, actually, probably because it was cheaper than therapy. And, god, I was out on a run. It's before Ironman 2011. I was out on a run. It was like a route pretty close towards the race, so it was like a 20 mile run. I'm like 10 miles away from my house. I was listening to a podcast not a podcast. There was no podcast.
Speaker 2:I was listening to a sermon in my ear holes from a guy at Denton Bible Church named Tommy Nelson and he was preaching on when David was anointed king 1 Samuel what 16, somewhere around there and I'm kind of like I'm listening, but I'm kind of tuned out because I've heard this so many times. The point of the story is going to be man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart. I already know this, so I'm just running along. That's not the point of Tommy's message at all. He says if you read it, it says that Samuel comes to town, they know that they're going to anoint the next king and they have a sacred assembly. All the elders are there, all the leaders are there.
Speaker 2:So basically they're having a parade. All they know is it's one of Jesse's sons. So they parade Shema, and then they parade Abinadab, and then they parade Eliab, and Samuel keeps going. No, not him, not him, not him, not him. Does all seven of his sons? And Samuel goes is there any more? And Jesse says, yeah, I mean I have one more, but he's not here. He's out in the field taking care of the sheep. And Tommy Nelson said one statement that changed my life. He said what God is looking for in a man is a man that cares more about the sheep than the parade looking for in a man is a man that cares more about the sheep than the parade.
Speaker 2:And, bro, I just started weeping. I'm 10 miles from my house. I'm just bawling. I was running. I actually had my hands up. I was running, I was laying. I'm listening, jesus, like I'm listening, I'm listening.
Speaker 2:By the time I got home, I looked like I'd been in a street fight. My eyes are almost swollen and my wife's like what happened to you? I was like, babe, I don't really know, but God just completely wrecked my world. What God is looking for in a man is a man that cares more about the sheep than the parade. And really, what should have happened, justin? If I would have been obedient, I would have quit in 2011. But we were on top of the world and I spent three years trying to convince God how awesome we were and that he really needed me out there Wow. So I had years of bitterness for those three years and finger pointing of like, well, I didn't like this and I didn't like this, and I didn't like this and I didn't like this. But now, through much prayer and counseling, I know that I was miserable because I was living in disobedience, wow, and God had to make me miserable so that I would leave. So that's the backdrop of the misery. But during that time we're also like.
Speaker 2:What people don't understand is when you're touring at that level, it's groundhog day. It's your bus parks under the arena. So when you get off the bus in the morning, everything's concrete. You're in a concrete jungle and there's gaff tape with arrows that say catering this way and dressing rooms this way, restaurant this way, stage this way. And you're just following arrows. You play a sound check, eat catering, play a show, get on the bus, drive all night, wake up underground in a concrete room with gaff tape on the floor Every day, right, and you play the same songs, same set list, every day, and then every day you do a meet and greet and people will say, oh man, I just loved at this moment, like I just felt the Holy Spirit at this moment.
Speaker 2:And when that's the same moment every night, I started asking questions like is the Holy Spirit waiting in the wings until his cue and then he's just going to come blow everybody away? Or are we manipulating people with the way you play music, with chord progressions, with what the lights do when you hit the six? It's no different than watching a scary movie, right, you can watch a scary movie, and with sound and lights, you can make it feel like somebody's in the room, right? Well, you can do that with christian music too, and so I just between my disobedience and being like it's it was almost like a like, because if we're manipulating people, then we're going to have to stand before God, you know, I would like to stop right here, though, and say this Again 20 years later, I can look back and go.
Speaker 2:You know what God is so good that I believe he really was meeting people. At that time, during my three years of darkness, I thought it was all manipulation, I thought it was all BS. That's how dark I was. But now I look back and go. No, we may have done some stuff wrong, but God's so good. I believe that people really met Jesus, and when they were telling us that they were being 100% genuine and sincere, I wasn't there for a while, but I am there now. So, again, I want to honor. A bunch of my friends are still touring musicians. I'm not saying that what they do is wrong. Again, this is my journey. I am saying that I think we have to be very careful. I think worship, and music in general, is just a dangerous sword to wield flippantly. You know what I mean. It's like I don't know.
Speaker 1:I should probably stop talking that's, that's so good, that's so good and it's it's really a powerful um. You know testimony to hear from someone like yourself. But then on the back side, on the other side of the, the bitterness and kind of the, you know jadedness and the shutdownness I can. I can relate in the sense of um. You know my listeners know I spent 15 years on staff at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City. If you don't know what that is, it was a 24-7 prayer ministry and it was a lot of beautiful things about that ministry.
Speaker 1:Last several years been horrible immorality exposed. It's just it's a zoo, it's gone to hell. It's just it's horrible. Lots of carnage and wreckage from that. And it's just it's. It's a zoo, it's gone to hell. It's just it's horrible. Um, lots of carnage and wreckage from that. And talking with my, my therapist and my wife, I can think back. I left staff in 2019 officially. So six years ago, at the release of this podcast, I left, but it was so 2019. I left in 20, either 2011 or 12.
Speaker 1:Uh, a man came up to me. I won't say his name because a lot of people will know who he is. He's a worship person and I knew he was going to be at this event. I was at. So I got done leading worship, walked back to the green room and this person walks up, walks up to me and and I'd known they were you know, kind of you had a prophetic edge, if you will, but like with no prerequisite or anything like that they gave a very, very strong word to me about how my season at the International House of Prayer was over and they actually said if you stay, you're in sin, out of nowhere. I have no relationship with this person. They have notoriety. You know I was angry. I went back to the hotel that night, told my wife I was like I don't care who you are, how famous you are, you don't get to like, give that kind of word to someone. How dare? He was kind of my attitude. So now, all these years later, talk with my therapist. I'm like man, my pride back there now. Sure could have been delivered better. Could he have prerequisited it by saying this is going to sound crazy, but just hear me out, but I never once Jesse prayed and asked the Lord in 2011, 2012, when that happened God, is this real Like? Is this person nuts? And I've had some regret about that Of like I was. Just, you know I'm not going to leave and there was a lot of fear involved for me in my story, which maybe that was part of the reason why you stayed. So I can relate in some way. But what I love is we overcome by the blood of the Lamb.
Speaker 1:We all know the verse and the word of our testimony and the most horrific season of your life. You know of my life or the different people who are listening. Maybe you know a kid who has cancer or a parent who's dying or whatever it is like on the other side of it. And I remember my therapist. Then I want to read something here that's really been striking me recently my therapist asked me this question with all the fallout of the ministry falling apart last couple of years, um, losing friends and you know all the stuff, losing a spiritual father, um, my therapist asked you know when, when your daughters, my daughters are young right now, when they're they're older, when they actually understand what happened here at this ministry, what do you want to, what do you want to tell them? What's your testimony going to be? And I said let's take some time, let's take multiple sessions and talk that through. But the one thing I had immediately in my heart. I said I don't want to be bitter, because I can feel the beginning direction into bitterness and I knew I didn't want that.
Speaker 1:You know Hebrews I think it's Hebrews 12. At the beginning, one of the first verses, it gives a metaphor of bitterness, uh, likened unto breaking a bone. And you know, we all know, if you break a bone you have to, like, set the bone so it heals correctly or whatever. And it likens it unto. If there's bitterness in your heart and you don't reset the bone, like, no, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, you just deal with the situation. Don't talk to a therapist, don't talk to a counselor, whatever. Just keep it in between your earlobes.
Speaker 1:Well, 5, 10, 15, 20 years down the road, when it's beginning to leak in, the bitterness is affecting your spouse, your kids, your friends or whatever. Or you're old and you know getting just crotchety, whatever. Here's what's going to happen when you realize, oh, that bone I broke 20 years ago, never set correctly, here's what happens the doctor has to re-break the bone, which is way more painful, to reset it correctly. And so I just love your story, man. You didn't, you didn't let it happen. You know you, you fought against it. Sure, you had some dark seasons, I had some dark seasons. But, dude, benjamin William Hastings, have you heard this song At the Heart of it?
Speaker 2:Is it on his new record?
Speaker 1:It just came out in May, I believe it is no, I don't think I have.
Speaker 1:So I'm just going to read real quickly. So, if you don't know who benjamin hastings is, he's written amazing songs like gratitude, and so will father's house. So will I. Yeah, a little one there. But uh, the course of the song, um, I'm trying to get back to the heart of it and leave behind the madness that entangles it and keep on trying to sing about the stars and dance in the dark like faith isn't hard. Uh, because, if I'm honest, I love this. I'm done with almost all of it. But you all the additives and the nonsense, god, you're all I've ever wanted and it's just like he did that song, yeah you do that song?
Speaker 1:yeah, you did cut right on it. No, I wish just, uh, just did such an amazing job of bringing me into, yeah God, back to when it all started. So the season now you and your wife are in, you're empty nesters.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, bro, I think this is good for both me and you and maybe, obviously, if that's where the spirit's leading the conversation, I think for your listeners is, it's just so easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater, like your years at IHOP did a lot of good. How it ended doesn't negate all the good years and it's real when it's you. It's hard to separate it. Does that make sense? So that's kind of your story, it's kind of my story. But now, like, looking back, uh, two, two weeks ago I was having prayer time in the morning, had a cup of coffee, had my bible, um, I got this like piano thing of Stephanie Gretzinger's mom playing piano for an hour. I'll just put it on. It's crazy. It's like when David played the harp for Saul and the evil spirits would leave Stephanie's mom, like when she plays piano. It's like.
Speaker 2:So I'm just having like this moment of listening prayer and Jesus told me so clearly. He said you need to change your narrative. I was like what? And I just sat there and just listened. He said you need to change your narrative. He's like when you tell the story, you always tell of all the bad things he's like, but the story is is that I was leading you. I was leading you out, and so that's where I'm trying to get right now is like. That's why I don't want to bad mouth touring musicians. I don't want to bad mouth like these organizations because they do a lot of good. They're also made up of people right Yep, yep of people right.
Speaker 2:And really the story I want to tell is that my miserable years were because I was not listening to the voice of God, and now that I have listened to it, songwriting is a good example. Since we're supposed to talk about songwriting and you have seven minutes before you have to go, songwriting for me was I thought that if I left Chris and left Passion, that God would never use one of my songs again. Wow, I thought that I was committing career suicide and, honestly, I wanted to follow Jesus so much and I was so miserable that I was like it was kind of almost like Abraham and Isaac. I was like God, if this is what I'm laying on the altar and you don't ever use me again, then fine. And so I walked away and didn't write songs for three years, but I got Tommy Nelson saying what God wants in a man is a man who cares more about the sheep than the parade.
Speaker 2:And you know, in 2017, we started a house church called King's Porch here in Austin, and now we multiply and we have six houses now maybe about to start our seventh and we just meet in homes. We go smaller. We want everybody to be known. We want everybody to be prayed for by name every time they come through the door. We eat a meal together, like Acts 242. We read the scripture together. We pray for each other.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't be doing any of that. I wouldn't be doing any of that, I wouldn't be pastoring a church, I wouldn't be feeding the sheep if I was still in the parade. So I'm changing my narrative to go. No, god has led me into this and I speak. Jesus was the song.
Speaker 2:So we start every one of our houses, every single meeting, every time after we eat a meal together, we start with Jesus stories and that looks like, hey, let's go around the room real quick and just tell of. One time this week you got to speak the name of Jesus to somebody and the first three or four months of that was the most painfully awkward thing you've ever sat through in your entire life. And we would just let it be Because the New Testament says that thousands were coming to know Christ daily, and you come to 2025, and we have the fewest amount of people coming to know Christ. That's a whole other thing we can talk about. Read 1 Peter 2.10. He says that we're priests now. In the early days they understood the priesthood of the believer and we've completely lost it and we're almost back to the Old Testament, minus the sacrifices, where we all come together and listen to one priest and then go home and do nothing about it.
Speaker 2:So, we're just trying to elevate the priesthood of the believer all the time. So every meeting let's go around and talk about. One time you got to speak the name of Jesus to somebody. That's what I was carrying when I went to Kalispell, montana, just trying to encourage people to speak the name of Jesus. So even when we wrote that song, my biggest goal for that song was I'm going to play this on acoustic guitar on my back porch so that people realize you speak the name of Jesus over fear and anxiety and depression, and that was my biggest goal for that song. I hope people on my back porch sing it and I feel like God kind of went and blew on it and that song for me, justin, has been. It was God very gently but very firmly rebuking me. He clearly said you have put your faith in man. Wow, like you think that. How great is our God and Lord I need. You did good because of Chris Tomlin or because of Louie? He was like I did that of Chris Tomlin or because of Louie? He was like I did that.
Speaker 2:And so now I'm in this whole new season of writing where I don't even care. I don't care what a song does I just want to make it write a song that makes God happy, and I feel like the more open-handed I am with it, the more I've had songs break out. I've got a song right now you can't see it, but I've got a gold record hanging right there. It's my first one that doesn't say Chris Tomlin on it from Max McNown, a song called A Lot More Free. It's on Pop Radio. It's number seven right now as we speak Number seven on Pop Radio. Not even a Christian song. I wasn't chasing that. I was just trying to be nice to people and say yes to things that I feel like God's leading me to do.
Speaker 2:When we wrote A Lot More Free, max was busking on the street in Portland, came to Nashville to write some songs and had a session with me. I was like I don't know this kid, but let's go. Wrote that song a year ago and now it's gold. Wow Again. That's not like patting me on the back. That's me changing my narrative and saying I wouldn't do, I wouldn't. There wouldn't be. I Speak Jesus. There wouldn't be a lot more free, there wouldn't be. I speak jesus. There wouldn't be a lot more free, there wouldn't be these new songs if I was still just holding on so tight to the past? Yeah, but turns out, when you follow jesus it may. What is it? Uh? Chronicles of narnia say like, like it's not safe, but it's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, that's how I feel about it. So Kind. The song that Corey carried Michael, steve and yourself was that kind of another one. You just found yourself in a room and then Corey carried the song.
Speaker 2:No, that song. When we wrote it we thought there's no way anybody in the world would ever have the guts to do this song. We wrote that for therapy. Wow, we wrote that after a seven-year-old in my church, in our house church, named Nora, she started having headaches. Her dad's, one of my really good friends, she started having headaches. We prayed for her, we anointed her with oil, we did all the things and it turned out she had an inoperable brain tumor and she died. Wow.
Speaker 2:And I went to Nashville and I was pretty raw and I was with Farron and Fee and you know, at that time Farron was going through marriage problems you know, I'm sure people know Fee's story and it was just the three of us in a room and Michael spun around on the piano and he said sometimes marriages don't work, sometimes babies die. And we were like, oh no. So we wrote that song just for therapy for us. And that song did nothing for a year and then Michael decided he was going to put it on TikTok and Corey heard it on TikTok and again, that's just. That wasn't something we were chasing, that was God going all right. I like that posture.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, that's beautiful man. We have to let you go. I have to go as well. I I gotta hop on a call here, but can you come back at some point and talk about songwriting, because I feel like a lot of my listeners are not thrilled with me right now, but it was so good.
Speaker 1:I I agree with, I think where we went in this conversation was where we were supposed to go, and I I know for a fact a lot of people resonated with the stories that were shared really appreciate your, your vulnerability, bro, and again, from the first time, you and I wrote together several years ago, um, which, if you guys want to hear a song that jesse and I wrote, uh, matchless, which is the title track of a record I did a couple years ago. Uh, we wrote together on that one. But I so appreciate your humility, man, your character, um, just who you are, and and we'll have to have you back to talk about some songwriting. Does that sound good?
Speaker 2:Yeah, here's just. Your takeaway tip for songwriting is just read your Bible and start there. Try to put those to melodies, and I feel like God likes that. Try to put as much scripture in your songs as you can, because that is the only thing. That's the only thing in the world that God says does not return void. So if you put scripture in your songs, it's going to do something.
Speaker 1:It's good, it's really good.
Speaker 2:All right, buddy. Well, I love your face. Thanks, man, Good to see you.
Speaker 1:Much love to you too. Thank you guys for listening Again. Please like comment. Share this episode. Subscribe. We for listening Again. Please like comment. Share this episode subscribe. We appreciate you guys listening to this and we'll see you guys in the next episode. Thank you.