The Rizzcast Podcast
Exploring the intricate life of being an entrepreneur and creative.
For over 20 years, Justin Rizzo has been a full-time worship leader, songwriter, and filmmaker. He is passionate about authentic worship and creativity. Justin also dedicates himself to raising up and coaching worship leaders and creatives of all types, nurturing their growth and success. In addition, he owns Firelight Creative, a production company that has produced multiple award-winning musicals and films, and hosts gatherings for creatives both online and in person. Justin travels extensively to lead worship and speak at events around the world.
The Rizzcast Podcast
044 When God Calls You Somewhere You Didn’t Expect
Candid conversation with one of Justin’s best friends, Matt Gilman.
This episode is raw, refreshing, and full of wisdom for anyone navigating their calling as a creative.
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Justin Rizzo is a worship leader, songwriter, and filmmaker. He is passionate about authentic worship and creativity, focused on bringing glory to Jesus. Justin also dedicates himself to raising up and coaching worship leaders and creatives of all types, nurturing their growth and success. In addition, he owns Firelight Creative, a production company that has produced multiple award-winning musicals and films, and hosts gatherings for creatives both online and in person. Justin travels extensively to lead worship and speak at events worldwide.
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Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode, excited to have a guest on the show today. He is one of my best friends and has been one of my best friends for over 20 years now, and we served on staff at the International House of Prayer for many, many years and that's actually where we met, way back in the day when we were like 18 years old, and so it's my pleasure to welcome in Matt Gilman Dude. Thanks for being here, man what's up everybody.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me, bro are you nervous to be on the podcast?
Speaker 2:terrified I'm. Honestly, I I don't know what to expect. I don't know what you're going to ask me about my deepest, darkest secrets or whatever, but just know what goes around, comes around and, um, I have stories to also share.
Speaker 1:So absolutely, absolutely. We both have some duties we could share. Maybe we will. We'll see where we go on this podcast.
Speaker 2:Start my own podcast and tell stories.
Speaker 1:The Gilman cast doesn't have the quite ring to the same ring to it.
Speaker 2:Whatever?
Speaker 1:So if you guys don't know who Matt Gilman is, matt, I'm going to have you kind of share a little bit about who you are here. But a phenomenal singer, phenomenal songwriter, uh travels the world full-time, leading worship at conferences and events and speaking just an amazing, amazing uh person. He has uh children, he's married, amazing family. But, matt, kind of just give us a little bit of your uh, your history and kind of your testimony that kind of led you to the house of prayer when you were you were 18.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, uh. So I grew up, uh, my dad's a Lutheran pastor. Uh, so I grew up in the Lutheran church, um, which is kind of a wild journey how I ended up leading worship and mostly charismatic circles, um, but, uh, yeah, so when I was so I grew up in the church, um, mostly bored, honestly, like, mostly going to church board, um saying a lot of hymns, a lot of our the prayers were written down in the bulletin, and so everything just seemed old or insincere, um, growing up Although I wouldn't have said that when I was a kid, cause I didn't have the language for it, but it just felt, it felt canned and so, um, anyways, that was most of my childhood, you know. And then, being the pastor's family, there's church politics involved and we had to be in the front row, we had to dress a certain way and we had to look a certain way and we had to, you know, and so it was just, uh, the pressures of all of that was not fun for me or pretty.
Speaker 2:I don't know how the rest of my family felt. Never talked about it, probably opening up some deep wounds right now, but anyway. So when I was 14 years old, something crazy happened in our church small town church in South Dakota. We probably had about 100 people in our church and and the holy spirit came in our, in our services, and I remember how like what does that?
Speaker 2:like meant, like speaking in tongues um people, like shaking under the power of the holy spirit, like I'd never seen your dad is preaching or like when like we had like worship nights every now and then like okay, the late 90s, early 2000s, as the worship movement was being reformed, hillsong started becoming a bigger thing.
Speaker 1:Michael.
Speaker 2:W Smith released his worship album. So a lot of those types of things started to shape worship, even in mainstream or more traditional services, and so we started having worship nights. We had also a group of people from another Lutheran church who had experienced moves of the Holy Spirit before they came in and taught some seminars for us at our church, anyway. So the Holy Spirit comes in through, you know, whatever those avenues and I didn't fully participate at first because I was more just like what. This isn't, this isn't normal but I've read the Bible, I've heard all the teachings. You know, we had Pentecost Sunday. We had all the things like where the Holy Spirit comes, mighty, rushing wind, tongues of fire, like and I'm just going and they, you know they speaking in different languages. I'm going. For the first time in my life I'm standing in the back of the sanctuary watching these people that I knew from my childhood were like the most reserved, stoic people in the church, all of a sudden having these spiritual manifestations and speaking in tongues. I'm going. This is in the Bible. And two, it's the first time in my whole life I'm not bored in church, and so that just kind of. You know. And then throughout that process I ended up getting filled with the Holy Spirit, receiving my own prayer language, you know, and just being introduced to the gifts of the Spirit and all of those things Prophecy, healing, seeing all these things Ends up, we lose about 70% of the congregation, including our piano player who played the hymns on Sunday morning, and so me, being the musical guy that I am, am taking piano lessons for pretty much my whole childhood. My dad asked me to step in and play the hymns and then started to kind of incorporate some of these more modern worship songs, and that's kind of how I just got. I didn't even realize it was called worship leading, but that's kind of how it started.
Speaker 2:I started leading worship at 14 in my dad's church, my dad's Lutheran church in small town, south Dakota, and through that I gained a mentor, a spiritual leader and friend of mine. Another worship leader who I really looked up to, kind of took me under his wing and emailed me one day and said hey, I got this flyer in the mail for a conference down in Kansas City. I was going to throw it away and as I was throwing it away, I heard the voice of the Holy Spirit tell me I need to take you there. And so, anyways, we go down to it was probably man, it's probably 2000, 2001. We go down downtown Kansas City Municipal Auditorium. It was like a spiritual warfare conference downtown and I'd never heard of the House of Prayer, really. But I walked in and I remember I was I think I was 16 at that point. I walked in and I heard the Holy Spirit say you're home, holy Spirit say your home.
Speaker 2:And so, anyways, I finished high school and had a lot of music, scholarships to different schools and everything that I ended up saying no to because I felt like the Holy Spirit was leading me to this place called the House of Prayer. And you know, I didn't really know what it was, didn't know. I remember I didn't realize that it was 24, seven prayer. And when they told me, I remember sitting in our I mean you were there that day too, but orientation meeting, day one of our internship. They're like you're going to have Bible teaching, you're going to have music classes if you want it, and you're going to be spending 35 hours a week in a prayer room.
Speaker 2:And I'm like what on earth? 35? What are we going to do? I mean, I had, I loved music, I loved worship. But, good Lord, I get through my prayer list in five minutes before I go to bed and I pray before all of my meals. What more do you want from me? Like? And so I? I just was angry. I was angry at the Lord, I was like you tricked me, god. I'm thankful that God tricked me, because if I had known what it was, I wouldn't have said yes to it. But you know, you maybe have a similar journey, or maybe you were just deep in prayer from the very beginning.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Yep.
Speaker 2:That's what it was. But, like I sat in the prayer room for the first three months bored out of my mind because it was, you know, in the prayer room for the first three months, bored out of my mind because it was, you know, in the context of 24-7 worship, you hear the same song 10 times in a day and you hear, like you know and sorry to anybody out there who's listening, who was part of this in the early days, but a lot of the worship teams were bad and like. So you're listening to bad versions of a song that you've heard already 10 times that day and you're listening to bad versions of a song that you've heard already 10 times that day and you're forced to try to find God in the middle of it and I just you know, I was 18 years old and I had a bad attitude and I didn't want to be there and
Speaker 2:so, um, but anyways, long story short, I ended up encountering the Lord in the prayer room and in those six months I told the Lord I was going to be there for six months and I ended up staying for 10 years, and so, um, yeah, so that's kind of in a nutshell yeah, so before we get to kind of that, that next stage when you're at IHOP we we talked about that a little bit Um, tell me about the euphonium euphonium. What do you want to know? Listen, okay listen up.
Speaker 1:I thank you. Thank you for bringing this up. I am for those who don't know what a euphonium is maybe start with that.
Speaker 2:Those of you who don't know what a euphonium is. How dare you? Um, no, for those of you who don't know what a euphonium is, it's basically a small tuba. Um, and I don't know why you're laughing. Listen, this was this. Was gonna pay for my college. Bro. I was four years in a row the best euphoniumist in the state of south dakota euphoniumist, that's a word I don't know, know, I made it up Euphonium player.
Speaker 2:I was the number one high school euphonium player in the state of South Dakota. And you might say, matt, how many people actually play the euphonium in the state of South Dakota? Well, my friends, you might be surprised, because there were several. Anyways, it was a fierce competition and I won four years in a row and actually had some, uh, scholarship opportunities from that and from you know vocal and piano stuff as well so let's just harp on that just for one second.
Speaker 1:This there's something here I feel like, um no, so you're sitting at, like when your high school did a show or whatever. You're in the pit playing the euphonium and you're watching the conductor doing your part.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then you had different band performances outside of that we had band performances or I was on, you know, in the show, because I did a lot of acting in high school too. So like I was either in the band in the pit, or I was on the stage playing a role okay, you didn't fall in the pit, though that's good no, I was very good.
Speaker 1:Andy fell in the pit. Um and uh, tell me. So. Euphonium was the first thing I also want to talk about. Were you always a a tenor? So if you guys don't know, matt can hit you know high c's belting on the regular, very, very tenor, amazing voice. But it wasn't always that way, well.
Speaker 2:I can't do it as I don't have the stamina that I once had. But I can hit a high C on a good day, but no so in high school. I was actually a low base in high school.
Speaker 1:In high school.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in high school, that's crazy.
Speaker 1:What.
Speaker 2:Post-puberty what Post-puberty? So I I was. I was a low base in all the choirs in high school. I actually did all state chorus as a base for years and all of there's a story circulating A lot of places I go is a story circulating. That's just not true about how I had this dream where God touched my vocal cords and all of a sudden I could sing high. That's not the case. I literally just did a bunch of vocal exercises to expand my upper register and in doing so I lost most of my lower register. But you know, over time I've learned how to just sing higher. So so youtube barely existed.
Speaker 1:Didn't exist probably back then. What so if someone like is peaked with that, hey, I want to work my upper range. What do you?
Speaker 2:did you take lessons like she's just um, I think I I honestly never took formal vocal lessons. I just I listened to a lot of music and just I mean I did vocal exercises, like when I would drive in the car I would constantly try to like hit the next note, and it didn't always sound good, I would squeak a lot and all that. But I think, just over time, your voice, ultimately your voice, is a muscle that you can condition and so to a certain degree I'm not saying like I'm not, I'm no contra tenor I can't like hit those notes in the rafters Like some people can. I mean, some people are just gifted with a naturally higher, naturally low voice and I think you work within the parameters of kind of your natural given ability. Um, but you can, you can work it too and and build that muscle to go where you want it to go I mean that that's amazing.
Speaker 1:You're a base in high school, at post-puberty, and you develop the range that you have now. That's that's, but I lost all lower register, so which I yeah, I don't really need it, though, totally. No, you don't, no, you don't. And then so piano for you. You said you took piano lessons all through. Like what age did you start?
Speaker 2:Like early, 6th, 7th, I started when I was 8, and then took lessons through graduation, so 8 to 18.
Speaker 1:And why did you do that?
Speaker 2:I loved it.
Speaker 2:I loved classical piano so I was classically trained for 10 years. I loved the challenge of getting a new piece of music and mastering it. It was like I just loved it. I would you know I drove my family crazy because I was constantly. I would you know I drove my family crazy because I was constantly practicing something. I was either playing the euphonium in my room or I was learning a role for a play, or I was sitting at the like. I would practice piano for four to six hours a day sometimes. Sometimes my fingers would bleed.
Speaker 1:Older sister, younger sister, right Yep, older sister, any older?
Speaker 2:sister, would your fingers really bleed? Younger sister right.
Speaker 1:Yep, older sister, any older sister, would your fingers really bleed? You being sarcastic.
Speaker 2:No, sometimes I would tear my fingernails and they would bleed because I would hit so hard. Wow, your euphoniums are off. This is mostly the piano, not so much the guitar. Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 1:Thanks for clarifying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're welcome.
Speaker 1:So I mean I've heard you play even back in the internship days where roommates you know you sit down at a piano and from memory, just playing, you know whatever it was Bach, or whoever it was Do you still? Can you sit down and still remember pieces just by the muscle memory of your fingers?
Speaker 2:You caught me. I mean 18 years old, I had just stopped taking lessons and so I was very fresh out of. You know, having all of these new pieces of music in my mind, I can still play, but not like I could then and just transitioning from classical to contemporary worship, chord sheets and improv and all that stuff like that. You know I've lost some of the classical chops that I developed in high school. You know I've lost some of the classical chops that I developed in high school. But yeah, I do still bust out some of the oldies, the old Beethoven books, every now and then, and it sounds worlds different than it used to but I it is fun for me to just kind of reminisce and play those things again.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. You made the transition from classical into worship, and now mostly just do worship. It'd be fun, though, dude, to see you like kind of, you know play something from that time period of your life and kind of.
Speaker 2:Well, I got my keyboard here. So glad you're back.
Speaker 1:And then so vocally did you compete as a bass?
Speaker 2:I did. I did Allstate Chorus and Honors Choir as a bass and so through high school and then, obviously, when I moved to Kansas City, I was kind of in the process of expanding my upper register more so.
Speaker 1:Okay, now I was thinking back what you're saying earlier with your dad's church, everything. This might not be the type of thing you want to talk about on the podcast, to just give me the the signal if it's a no-go. But did something happen, um, with like a? Was it a demonic encounter or something like that in high school in your church, or something good that happened in your church, or something like some of my brain I have like um, there was, I think still is probably, some demonic strongholds over that town.
Speaker 2:Um, it's, it's kind of it's. I don't have mine saying it, I don't. I don't know if anyone in that town will listen, unless you have a great following in canton, south Dakota.
Speaker 1:My biggest following is in South Dakota.
Speaker 2:They're all you polio players. No, canton, south Dakota. There is a darkness in there that it's kind of unspoken, but I think for anyone who's sensitive to spiritual things, you kind of feel it when you drive into town. I don't know if it's like because I know there's a lot of Native American ritualistic stuff in that area of the country. I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but it's like weird death situations there are in that town, like suicides and freak, like houses burning down with kids stuck inside or like I don't know. It's just, there's like lots of weird stuff.
Speaker 2:And so I remember being a zealous high school kid with our youth group who was filled with the Holy Spirit going we're going to take these demons down and we're going to take this town for Jesus.
Speaker 2:And so we did prayer marches and prayed for the town and broke down, talked to principalities and powers of the air and said you can't be here anymore. And I think there was a season where it was really effective like talked to principalities and powers of the air and said you don't, you can't be here anymore, and so and I think there was a season where it was really effective, but I you know that whole thing about where the Lord says if, if you don't consistently fill the space that was once occupied by demons with the Holy spirit or the presence of God, they'll come back seven times stronger. And I think, I think that's unfortunately, maybe what's happened. And I talked to my dad's still pastoring there and it's bizarre how many funerals that he has to officiate and the cause of death, whether it's suicide or murder or freak accident, or it's just, it's just crazy and so, um, anyways, yeah, there was just, there was a, it was a spiritually intense environment to grow up.
Speaker 1:And you remember that as a young person.
Speaker 2:Oh for sure, Especially, you know, after being filled with the Holy spirit and you know, I think, especially those early days of experiencing the presence of God you can really tell the difference between good and evil. Like when I was first introduced, I felt darkness strongly, I felt the presence of God strongly, and so it was really easy to differentiate between what was going on.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. I remember being in high school I'll leave the the event nameless, but I was on like a prayer team for this event that went kind of around the nation and we would like go in as, like you know, 14, 15, 16 year olds and like pray before the event. And, uh, I remember this. One time we were in, I think, dc, maybe cincinnati, I can't remember, but it was this huge you know event space, conference hall or whatever, and the stage was all set up but like no one was sound checking. It was just this. You know tens of thousands of chairs, a couple thousand chairs, maybe like 5,000, 10,000 chairs and a huge stage and no one in it. Because we were going in first as the prayer team, right, and I remember I don't remember who these people were. They were like local people, whatever, and I'm, like you know, 14, 15 years old, I don't know anything and they were teaching us about spiritual warfare.
Speaker 1:And again, I don't know where I stand on this. I'm not an expert in this, so if you're listening, I don't necessarily recommend this, but they were like, hey, we're going to um place angels with flaming swords in the name of jesus at the four corners of this event space and I'm just, like you know, watching, listening, whatever. And then we're going to call forth all the demons that have been in here for previous events to the center of the room. I was like, uh, okay, wow. And then I literally remember them telling me and the other young people who were there, they're like hey, we want you guys to kind of like walk towards that center and tell us when you feel the darkness and I don't remember if I felt it or not, but I remember thinking they sent the kids in Hold on a second Hold on a second.
Speaker 2:They're going to gather all of the demons in the middle of the room and then they send the 14 year olds in to tell them when they start feeling the darkness. I don't know, bro.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't know what was happening, crazy high school. I don't remember if I felt it or not, but I remember thinking like man, like that's, that's weird, but I had a, a understanding and actually actually connected to dot, not to go like into this. So I was 14, 15. It brought me back to a memory that I had, and I've shared this with you before I was like five or six or seven, in our first house I ever lived in in New York and I woke up. I thought it was a dream. Now, as I've kind of like grown up and you know, kind of talked to people about it and I've like I think it's actually a real encounter, but I thought I was dreaming. I walked to my room, um, a bedroom in my room, and I and it's like kind of fox, like human face, like kind of pulled up in front of me. I just remember being, like you know, terrified. I'm like young, five, six or seven, whatever and then turned around and it like just began to kind of run like a fox across our, our um field, away from our house. So sorry if you're, uh sensitive, maybe that's like a creepy thing to hear or whatever, but what it? What it awakened in me the years later. This, like you know, intercessory, whatever thing was. Darkness is real and I think that maybe you know, I grew up not not unaware of it but we didn't focus on it, which I am glad you know you focus on the light, I think biblically, like you know, I grew up not not unaware of it, but we didn't focus on it, which I am glad you know you focus on the light, I think biblically, like you know, like a lot of the prayers are not focused on like rebuking, you know, demons or focus on, you know, let the turn on the light. You know, turn on the light. You don't need to like tell the darkness to go. But, um, I was probably like raised too much that way where it's like there are times in your life where you need to like get intense with the enemy, with this. So what this, this fox like character did way when I was young is I didn't know it until later, years later, it instilled in me a spirit of fear and it wasn't until I got married to my wife and I began to realize like I actually have like a spirit of fear that I've just been fully embracing under the realm of like wisdom or whatever, for for years, like I gotta be careful of this, gotta be careful of this fear of the dark. I mean just being honest, like and um. So anyway, all that to say what you're talking about your hometown, my encounter in my high school years, what happened when I was young.
Speaker 1:Spiritual warfare is real and you might be listening. You're like, whatever, I love jesus and I just I'm happy all the time. I love that. That's amazing. There are different spiritual gifts. You know, god, I think, allows us to feel different things.
Speaker 1:I think sometimes, if you have open doors which I definitely probably did to let this fear into my life at that time, with whatever was happening, who knows, you know, you can psychoanalyze it all. What was happening in my family that let this fox come to my door. It's like who knows my window? Um, but I definitely agree, like it's real and um, but some of y'all maybe need to to take some thoughts captive and literally I wrote a little song, a little jingle that I I sing to myself. I've taught to my kids now, when there's fear, to just sing it and to declare it, and sometimes it's like get out of my mind, get out of my house. Get out of my family right now like go, you know in the name of jesus, and it's just. Yeah, you got to keep it, keep it real. Um, so one more question here before we move on to pertinent things. Um, tell me about triple play.
Speaker 2:96, 97, 99, oh yes, the wasted year of my life, oh my gosh. Okay, so there was. So I, I did the internship for six months and then went home, for it was about another six months, like because I came back at one thing, 2005, and so, um, in that six months I worked and I played video games.
Speaker 2:One particular video game, triple play 99 it was 99, I thought it was yep triple play 99 and let me tell you, I I custom made all of my own players to be just huge and strong, and I I named them all me, and so I I had a franchise that was probably about 25 years deep, wow of a team consisting of all players that were named Matt Gilman, and they were all just huge and strong and they all made the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 1:You're a huge White Sox fan, of course.
Speaker 2:How dare you? We got to cut this off. I got to go, guys. I'm a diehard Minnesota Twins fan.
Speaker 1:The arch rival.
Speaker 2:The arch rival of. You know I don't really have much against the White Sox right now because they're not good, but living in Kansas City and you know my beef with Kansas City sports fans, none of them are real. No Kansas City sports fan is real unless they grew up in Kansas City.
Speaker 1:Taylor Swift is real.
Speaker 2:Taylor Swift is a self-professed witch and she is. She said so, Anyways. And she's got Travis Kelsey under some sort of spell. And listen, listen up. Kansas City sports fans are not real unless they grew up there. Justin Rizzo is a Buffalo Bills fan to his core. But as soon as the Chiefs, as soon as Patty Mahomes comes in all of a sudden. Ah, I've loved the Chiefs forever. No, you have not.
Speaker 1:It was Alex Smith. Alex Smith era Chiefs forever. No, you have not. It was Alex Smith. Alex Smith era Liar A couple years before.
Speaker 2:No, sir, you're not a Chiefs fan.
Speaker 1:You're not a Chiefs fan.
Speaker 2:I never will be, because it's not who I am. My DNA is deeply rooted in Minnesota, so you're a Green Bay Packers fan.
Speaker 1:All right, we're getting a little intense here. I need to back off the sports thing Stay with me.
Speaker 2:I'm a very passionate person.
Speaker 1:Are the twins good this year? I don't even know.
Speaker 2:No, they're, they're mediocre, it's a trade deadline. We're probably going to sell some of our big players to get some for the future.
Speaker 1:I know the Royals are not good.
Speaker 2:That's all I. The Royals twins and Guardians are kind of all hovering around $500 right now.
Speaker 1:Okay, when was the first ever album that you ever recorded, matt?
Speaker 2:It was the Holy Album with Corey Asbury. What?
Speaker 1:are you trying to do to me? Are you trying to?
Speaker 2:ruin me, was it? Listen, I'm not coming on this anymore. What, okay, I recorded because I thought I was a hot shot in high school. I thought I was awesome.
Speaker 1:Dude, four years, first estate euphonium you were, I had street cred bro.
Speaker 2:I know. Awesome Dude, four years, first estate euphonium you were, I had street cred bro, I know. So I had written some songs out of the sincerity of my heart, in my moments in the presence of the Lord, that I thought were worthy to be recorded and sold. And yeah, there's a picture on the front with me, in a sweater vest, leaning on a piano like this, and I thought it looked cool at the time, absolutely. There was a picture of me on the inside with a girl that I had a crush on because she helped write one of the songs, and I thought that that was okay and cool. And now I haven't seen that CD in several years. You're probably about to show it on the camera, I don't know. I won't do that to you, it's in my safe.
Speaker 1:I keep it real safe, it's very, very valuable what was the name of it.
Speaker 2:It was called Be Unto your Name.
Speaker 1:Which is a title track, which is a pretty solid song.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it could be revised a little bit maybe.
Speaker 1:I think it could be your next single.
Speaker 2:Why don't you and I co-write a revision of Be Unto your Name?
Speaker 1:I'll even let you be on the copyright, bro Dude this is amazing.
Speaker 2:You want to be on, be Unto your Name.
Speaker 1:You guys heard it here on the riz cast podcast change your lives beyond. Your name is coming back. What was the one? I'll never, ever let you go. I remember the melody in my brain it was a.
Speaker 2:It was a baller song I'll never, never let you go. Yeah, I don't remember. I don't remember the rest of it, I just remember that line.
Speaker 1:So how I found out that you had a I think it was a yellow border and your face was in the middle of it.
Speaker 2:It's like a royal blue with yellow trim.
Speaker 1:Royal blue. I love how you know that so quickly.
Speaker 2:It might have been like a purple, might have been Vikings colors.
Speaker 1:Oh, I see Purple and gold.
Speaker 1:Gotcha gotcha With a black and white photo of me and in the piano, like this so we show up in Kansas City at this internship and all I know is you know you have, I think I had three or three or three roommates, so it's four or four of us total, me, you and two other guys in this one room in this apartment, and there's another room that had, like, I think, one bunk bed with two guys, so it's like six guys in the apartment and so you're meeting everybody.
Speaker 1:You know, if you've ever gone to camp for a week or whatever, you understand what this is like. And so you know I'm like putting my stuff in my assigned you know dresser and I turn around and in walks, this matt I didn't know who you were, I hadn't met you yet, but in walks, matt gilman, like stumbling, like with this, like huge box of uh, which I didn't know was in the box until I you set it down, it was like towering. Maybe I'm being a little bit dramatic, but there was a lot of cds in there, bro, and your face was right on the cover, like can't, couldn't, couldn't. You know, I was like so, so jealous. I was like you were jealous.
Speaker 1:You were jealous of being to your name yes, dude, you had a cd at 18 years old. Back then that was like this is before, like the digital age, where you can just do stuff in GarageBand. You can get Logic for $200 and create music and put it on Spotify like anyone's business. This is back in the day when you had to hire somebody. It was like a laborious process to actually get music on digital service providers.
Speaker 2:I had the intercessor ladies of the church fund the production. I went to a bonafide studio and laid down.
Speaker 1:I hope they clean the demons out of it god I hope so.
Speaker 2:So that was my first ever that's why I didn't take off as much. We didn't sweep the demons out.
Speaker 1:Got a room to the center dude, the center of the room always.
Speaker 2:And the kids.
Speaker 1:The kids? You didn't have any kids around there, but that was my first ever time meeting you or being just so jealous. And so my first couple days of the internship I was like man, this guy's just so arrogant, you know, he's like has his own CD. And then it came time to audition. For what was your first audition? Do you remember the first time you met me? Was that the first time?
Speaker 2:I met you day one yeah.
Speaker 1:That was day one, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I brought in my box of CDs, and you were already established on the top bunk, I think. And so, yeah, justin and I shared a bunk bed for the first six months of our friendship. But yeah, that was probably our first encounter with me walking into the bedroom with my box of cds and why would I wake up sometimes with like quarters in my bed? Justin is that you, you, okay, you asked what matt's about to say.
Speaker 1:I I cannot confirm this, because I've never experienced or heard listen, listen to me I have.
Speaker 2:I live with justin for years, and you can. We shared a room pretty much the whole time I lived with you yeah, yeah um, you can hear like a freight train through the walls of the house.
Speaker 2:you know just Justin's sleeping, you know when Justin has fallen asleep. The whole neighborhood knows when Justin has fallen asleep. And so the roommates and I, once we knew you were out, we would throw quarters at your head to see which one of us could wake you up first. And so, in the hopes that we would fall asleep again before you, before you entered into the depths of your, of your slumber, I'm just glad it wasn't like pennies or dimes or nickels, it's like quarters, like it's actually valuable.
Speaker 2:You probably gained a lot absolutely yeah, let's say you owe me some gas money.
Speaker 1:By the way, yeah, as well, matt um had a car which I don't think many, many of the interns had. It was like what?
Speaker 2:58 or 68 interns in our one of like three with how much I was leasing out that car listen, you want to be popular. You want to be popular in kansas city. You bring your, your. You bring a car to your six-month internship, where nobody else has one. You'll be the most popular guy in school.
Speaker 1:That and a CD, and you're made, you're set.
Speaker 2:The recipe. It's what I try to buy anyway.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And you did it so well, matt, so well. So our friendship began. And another kind of memory that's coming to me from that early years was we did auditions for the well internship worship team and there was was there, there was a lot of us, like 50, 68 of us, I think. I want to say I think so yeah, it was a lot big internship. So they did like multiple. You know worship teams and you, you know you do your worship set or whatever.
Speaker 2:And you know worship teams and you know you do your worship set or whatever, and I remember at the auditions you went right in front of me. Do you remember this at all? I think I only remember it because you have told me the story so many times yeah, you were just, you were just blurred out in in the glory. Yeah, my my audition was just an encounter, basically.
Speaker 1:Pretty much Flying, levitating the whole nine yards, crazy. So Matt, as we've already stated, incredible voice, and if you don't listen to Matt's music, go listen to Matt on Spotify. He's incredible. Or if you come into a studio near you, go listen to him. But he's doing all these crazy runs and all this stuff.
Speaker 1:And the other person doing auditions was just like, all right, you're in like after like five seconds, you know. Then I get up and you know it was also pretty short, but definitely not nearly as like showing. There's a couple other people in there who could just, like you know, just slay vocally and I was just like, why am I even, you know again, super young, super dumb and, you know, in the early process of. But one of the things I love about places like the house of prayer that we were at was, you know, cause the way I kind of tell the story is and this is still true today, you know, a lot of times it's like if you are, um, loving Jesus and have some gifts or have some desires to grow in Jesus, you're the one who's going to go to the internship, whether that's, you know, whatever big internship you go to or whatever, and so, but then when you get there you realize like, oh like, all of these people are hungry for Jesus and have gifts and yada, yada, yada yada. And so you have a choice to make you can either get better or you can get bitter in that, as the saying goes, you can either get better or you can get bitter in that, as the saying goes. And so one of the things that I loved about that internship was we had internship prayer meetings and so you would lead or I would lead or a couple other people. I mean Caleb Andrews, like from you know, he was just incredible. If you guys don't know who Caleb Andrews is, he only has a couple songs on Spotify, but the guy is amazing. Amazing heart, amazing songwriter, a beautiful example by Caleb Andrews. Go look that song up, it's incredible. Him and his family are now serving overseas missions in a very, very dangerous part of the world. He's got a wife. He's amazing.
Speaker 1:But there's a lot of people in there and I remember just these. I think it was weekly or maybe twice a week. I don't know how often we had these internship prayer meetings, but we would just. You know these. I think it was weekly or maybe twice a week, I don't know how often we had these internship prayer meetings, but we would just, you know, having someone else lead, receiving from their anointing, receiving from their gifting, just began to like change kind of the chemistry and the DNA of like you know what? Like this person is amazing and I am so grateful for their gift. I'm grateful for my gift and what it is, but I'm also grateful for their gift and kind of letting those two things coincide. Was there anything like that for you in those kind of early years of of leading worship there?
Speaker 1:Um and just in terms of like like realizing, like that there's a lot of fish in the pond, and like being okay to you know not.
Speaker 2:Yes, no, I. I grew up, like I said, a small town, south Dakota. I was like the musical kid in town and so I, for my whole high, junior high, high school, like I, had the reputation in town Matt Gilman is the musical guy, you know. I would you know I, you know I played at a lot of like business parties in town, just as entertainment. I would you know I was the guy. And so, and I came into kansas city with that mentality going I'm the guy, hence the box full of cds and you know.
Speaker 2:But then, like you said, you walk into the room and you're in a room filled with 80 people who were the guy in their town and it's just, it's a. You get real humbled real quick and you realize that, yeah, you have a gift, for sure, but so do a lot of other people. And yeah, and learning how to um, especially in an atmosphere like the house of prayer. I mean, I think I ran auditions for a season. I know we had a list of like at least 500 people who were approved and waiting to be on a worship team, and so you're just in a giant community of people who are all massively gifted, and so if you don't have humility in that context. It'll, you'll, you'll get crushed like, yeah, you know. So for sure, I, I definitely felt all of that so what was the first?
Speaker 1:I've never asked you this question, so I'm curious to know. Because we talked about, you know, your, your first album and everything. But after that, when, once we're at the house of prayer, do you remember the first song, either song that you wrote or a spontaneous chorus that had come out during one of your sets, where you thought to yourself this will be a song one day. Do you remember what the first one was? I don't know.
Speaker 2:I mean no, I mean, that's what we did, what we did every day, and so, like I mean, I remember the important ones. I remember Holy coming out spontaneously in a prayer room. I was subbing on somebody else's team and I remember we were just singing through Revelation, chapter four, and the guitar player starts playing that chord progression and we just kind of settled into that. Holy, holy lord, god almighty. We sang it for two hours seth yates?
Speaker 1:right, yes, yeah, and seth amazing guy. He was in hawaii doing missions for years. Now him and his wife direct the prayer room at upper room in dallas.
Speaker 2:If you guys don't know who seth yates is, he's amazing amazing guy, amazing friend, um, but yeah, so I I remember moments like that. I remember when, uh, you made a way, came out spontaneously at the call kansas city in 2007. Uh, you know, we were, I think it was, I think it was new year's eve and lou was up there and you know, lou just turns around and he goes sing about the cross and so I'm like, okay, we'll, we'll go there, and that you, you made a way for me enter the holy place. That just kind of came out spontaneously in front of 30 000 people and kind of took on a life of its own over time. So it's hard to remember the very first, because there was. I mean, it's what we did every day, all day, you know, and I remember, especially in those early days, I think you and I both were on like three different worship teams at the same time.
Speaker 1:And so there was a season when I was single, there was three, mostly it was two, but there was a season that was three. Yeah, crazy.
Speaker 2:Spending six to eight hours a day just spontaneously singing. I mean it was exhausting. But, man, the experience that we gained in those, especially in those earlier years, just singing the word, singing the Bible, you know, making core like I still think I that muscle that I learned 20 years ago in the prayer room I use every time I travel, you know cause. I mean this may be getting onto a different tangent, but, like the last thing I want to do as a worship leader is come in and just sing songs. Anyone can come in and do Christian karaoke. I want to create a context for people to experience the power of the Word of God, singing the Word of God. Honestly, I've had encounters with the Lord. I've had many encounters with the Lord at the house of prayer. I think the number one thing that changed me over the long haul was consistently, on a daily basis, taking this book and singing it and getting it written on my heart, and so, anyways, that's yeah, so so, on the songwriting thing then.
Speaker 1:So you had, you just had a, you know, a long career, and so you had, you just had a you know a long career, as did I, hours a day of of singing the word verbatim or, you know, paraphrasing it or whatever. In terms of your songwriting journey specifically, then, how has that kind of morphed and changed? You know, and we we've talked about this before, and you know I do a lot of songwriting, you know courses and all that kind of stuff and of stuff, and we're having our first songwriting retreat here soon. Like this idea of writing to record it, like writing for spotify, like writing to I'm doing a record, I'm doing whatever, which, again, isn't isn't bad. Like it's not, it's not wrong to write a song to. You want to win a grammy. Like that is not evil, that is not wrong. Like it's not more holy to be invisible, it's not more holy to be unseen. There's not, there's, like you know, um, but how have you?
Speaker 1:You started? It sounds like from a real, like just kind of grassroots, earthy place. So I'd sing a thing and in front of all these thousands of people, this song came out and holy came out. You know whatever verse I'm sitting down to like craft something in a co-writing session or in a solo writing session, so kind of give. I know it's a big question of your 25 ish plus years of doing this. Have you done both of those things? Do you enjoy one like over the other?
Speaker 2:yeah, I've learned. I've learned to pay attention to small inklings that I find throughout normal life. Every now and then I will wake up with a melody in my brain that I've never heard or thought of before Before. I'd be like man, that's so good. I got to remember that for later and now I've kind of worked them up. I've probably got 2000 voice memos on my phone of just little ideas that I've had throughout the last several years and so, um, and it's fun every now and then to like listen back and go, hey, that chorus that I got or that melody would go great with this theme that I was just thinking about yesterday. And so a lot of times you know, you craft a song over the course of a couple years without even realizing it, and then other times it'll just happen in a live worship moment where you know like Holy, are you Made Away?
Speaker 2:or I'm sure you've had several experiences like that yourself where the song just kind of drops in your lap and it is what it is, and not that you don't take it and refine it and you know, but at least the, the core meat of the song just kind of gets dropped in there. I think, um, my song, uh, closer. I actually woke up from a dream. Um, with that song, the first line, there is a rainbow of mercy around you. Come closer, closer. I woke up singing that out of a dream. I went to my piano at 3 o'clock in the morning and wrote that whole song in five minutes.
Speaker 2:And so it's, that's cheating. But I also think, like I think God wants to do that, like what if I don't know? Like I think we need to pray for those types of things. That was speaking of seth yates, um, probably the leading voice that I can think of in the world right now on tuning your ear to the melodies of heaven, like um, and just the, the consecration that he lived by in order to set, you know, sadness, had a lot of angelic encounters, a lot of spiritual encounters about hearing the sounds and the rhythms and the melodies of heaven, but just the consecration like he's, like he goes.
Speaker 2:I'm not listening, which I don't necessarily live by this rule, but I think it's a great rule Like, if you're going after something and you have the conviction on it, he goes. I'm not listening to secular music, even if it's harmless secular music. I'm not listening to anything that doesn't on purpose glorify Jesus and you know I deeply respect him for that and I think some I mean some of the most iconic songs that came out of the prayer room Seth was involved and kind of laid the foundation for those, and so I don't remember where I was going with that.
Speaker 2:But oh, yeah, so just songwriting. I think the way I learned to, even before I got to the House of Prayer, was I opened up my when I was 14, 15, 16 years old. I'd go to the church by myself, I'd open up my Bible to the Book of Psalms and I would just sing them. Oh, and this is yeah. I love that you said this. We write sometimes with the aim specifically to sell, and I think we've, in turn potentially maybe not everybody, but have bought into the lie that if it's not worthy to be sold, it's not worthy to be sung, and I think there's a commercializing of the worship industry that we have played a part in maybe and need to probably repent of a little bit Like.
Speaker 2:worship was never about making money. Worship, you know, at the at the heart of it all, worship is about living a fascinated life with God and giving him what he died for and what he paid for. And whether or not the rest of the world sings your song does not matter. You sing your song.
Speaker 2:If you have a song to sing, sing it whether anyone is listening or not. In fact, I've got, like I told you before we started, like I've got probably 100, 150 songs that I sing regularly when I'm at the piano that the world might never hear Maybe my family will hear it but I sing those between me and the Lord and those are special things between me and the Lord, and I don't know if I'll ever record them. Maybe I will, but my aim is not to record. I haven't recorded anything since, at least in a solo way, since 2013. And everyone's like when are you going to record? I haven't recorded anything since, at least on a soul, in a solo way, since 2013. And everyone's like when are you going to record another album? When are you going to like?
Speaker 2:wow and I'm like I don't. I don't necessarily know that I need to record another album, like my goal not that I I don't not painting myself in this like a holier than thou aspect, but, like my, my ambition is not to create albums. My ambition is to worship in a way that would allow others to experience and encounter the lord. And if that happens with one of the songs that I've written, or if it happens with an elevation or a hill song song or a maverick city song, like I don't care. I just want people to experience jesus and so sing my song. Sing someone else's song, sing your own song. Just get before the Lord and worship. So, anyways, that was a long response.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful, bro, and that's so, so countercultural. I mean, if you're listening to this and you're not a musician, worship leader, singer person like you, just have to know that that is, that is not the norm. Like again, so so much. And again, I'm not. I'm not demonizing an industry here. Please hear my heart. Like I.
Speaker 1:I know amazing people, as does matt, in that industry, that they do it. It's a job and it's about money and that record label doesn't care about their, their feelings. They're like hey. And I know authors as well, who you know new york times, best-selling authors, uh, in the spiritual realm, uh, you know. And it's like, hey, we need another hit. Like let's, let's go. And they're like um, do you know how I got that first one that came from like a you know, whatever a season of my life, that was hell and I had to process it out, like I know. But, like you made us a lot of money. So we need more like. And so we know, we know friends in that industry, the book industry, the music industry, whatever it is, and it there is beauty in that as well.
Speaker 1:So I'm not demon as I say this, I'm not demonizing that.
Speaker 1:But if you're a, a worship leader, a singer, musician, listening to this, um, you just want to know really clearly from the Lord which one of those things you're you're to pursue, and you don't have to know for the next 10 years that's what you're doing.
Speaker 1:But right now in this, if the church you're in the city, you're in the pastor, you're under the team, that you have the band that you have, how much you song right, how much you're giving to your talent and your craft, you know, maybe, like, just chill out on the being a, you know, superstar or whatever over here and just do exactly what matt said and stupid at. Because we can definitely tell you from some experience and definitely a lot of friends that we have and stories we've heard that getting to this level over here, before you have that depth, it'll just crush you and and we're seeing even so much now in in christendom, in music space, in different spaces like, if you don't have that depth, it'll just crush you and and we're seeing even so much now in in Christendom and music space and different spaces Like, if you don't have that solid foundation, it's it's not going to, it's not going to go well.
Speaker 1:So I love the, the counter-cultural.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm just even, as you're talking, I'm reminded of, I'm just looking it up here. I know the verse, I didn't know the address James 4.10. It's if you humble yourself in the sight of the Lord, he's the one who gets to promote you. Like, if God wants you to have an international best-selling record, god will make that happen for you. That's something that you feel called to. But, like, at the end of the day, if the favor of god is not on your life, you're, you're working, you're laboring in vain, like, and so I think, cultivate, cultivate, favor with god over a season of your life. You know, I started when I was 14. I didn't even realize what I was doing when I was 14 years old, alone in the church, I had no idea it was happening on corporate level in kansas city on a 24 7-7 basis. It was just something that God I knew.
Speaker 2:The Psalms were songs written by David in every season of his life. There's a lot of songs about pain, there's a lot of songs about joy, there's a lot of songs about battles and struggles and all this stuff, pretty much every experience you could have in the human life. The human experience is written in the Psalms by David. You could have in the human life and the human experience is written in the Psalms by David, and so like if you humble your, if you, if you get before the Lord in humility in your worship, god can promote you whenever he wants to and he can also demote you if you carry that spirit of pride.
Speaker 2:So anyways.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And one thing I wanted to mention a book I read several years ago called Building a Second Brain, which basically that book is all about taking notes about thoughts that you have. He gave a quote about Taylor Swift and I think it's I Wish you Would or I Wish you Could. One of her songs, I can't remember which one was written cites it in this book that taylor swift wrote this entire song based upon little notes she had taken over a several year period and then, she just put them all together.
Speaker 1:And so to what matt was saying earlier having the voice memos, having the notes on your notepad, whatever it is, to steward that out. I remember matt redmond um said this at one point he's a songwriter 24 7 when he's on vacation you're not from a stressful place, but he's on vacation looking at a mountain or a sunset. Something strikes him like oh well, I, I thought if I was in a writing session I would use that. It's like. No, like, write that down in your voice memo, record it real quick, whatever. Um.
Speaker 1:But I struck me when you know taylor swift, the stewardship that is given to craft songs, you get these amazing. You know tweetable one-liners and then a couple years later, like, oh, these all kind of have like a similar theme. You kind of like shove them all together and then people are like you're an amazing writer. It's like, actually, and yes, that's true, but you're an amazing steward, sure, and so really like what you were saying is, whether it's onset, spontaneous stuff comes out. Steward that out. If it's in the writing room, you're, you know, eating dinner with your family, you're on a road trip, whatever it is like, steward it out and have a way to, to, um, to access those. So I love those thoughts. Um, it's really good, bro, say again I didn't know you were such a swifty you got all these trivia
Speaker 1:I'm not a swifty, that was from building a second brain. This is a great book you all should read. But, yeah, kansas city, bro, kansas city, um, so, matt, before I let you go, which, thank you so much for, uh, for your time. We'll have to have you back and and talk about more things. We didn't get to a lot of it today, but I want to ask you about and I know probably the, the, uh, the actually call to action is going to be follow you on instagram to get notified. But the throne room academy, yeah, something that you and kelly have had in your hearts for a long time and you've mentioned it to me for, I feel like for years um, kind of talk about where that's at and then for people to get information, is it best to just follow you on ig for now, at mac gillman music or?
Speaker 2:yeah, um. So yeah, throne room academy we're, we're. Yeah, probably the best way to stay in touch with me right now. Um, we do have an uh instagram handle for throne room.
Speaker 2:It's just at throne room academy, um, and then you can look at my if there's nothing on it at this point. So maybe by the time people are listening to this, there'll be more on it. But, uh, but uh. You can follow me at, uh, Matt Gilman music on Instagram or Facebook. Um, but we're, we're, we're launching Thrundrum Academy this fall, 2025.
Speaker 2:Um, it's been, honestly, it's been in our hearts for several years. The go yet until this last probably three or four months, to really just get this thing off the ground. Basically, what we want to do is Revelation 4 and 5 has kind of been my go-to Anytime I, you know, I enter into worship or anytime I go to the scripture. Revelation 4, the throne room. What does worship look like in the throne room?
Speaker 2:Jesus said when you pray, pray that it would be on earth as it is in heaven.
Speaker 2:Revelation 4 gives us a heavenly model of what worship looks like around the throne, what God looks like and what the response is to him of those around him. And so my heart in Throne Room Academy is to give us, give the body of Christ, a real close-up view of the throne. Go, verse by verse, phrase by phrase, through Revelation 4 and 5, and go this is our doorway into fascination, Not just leading worship. This isn't just for worship leaders, it's for all of you. I mean, we're all called to worship, Humans are called to worship, and so just getting a closer look at what God looks like, so that it would create a fascination in our hearts, so that when we read Revelation 4 and we read the song of the seraphim holy, holy, holy or read the song of the 24 elders as they're casting their crowns, it would not provoke jealousy in us that they're there and we're here and separated, but it would actually provoke a fascination so that we could join in the same worship that they're engaging in right now.
Speaker 2:And so that's just kind of the heart behind Throne Room Academy. So we'd love to have you guys jump in with us. It's going to be great.
Speaker 1:And so we're talking courses and coaching, or just courses for now.
Speaker 2:So we're going to the core. There's going to be the core curriculum of just the. We're going to do weekly gatherings. Some of it will just be the curriculum, some of it will be Q&A, some of it will just be worship nights. And then I think on the side we haven't fully developed it yet, but we're thinking is on the side, doing more of an application-based mentorship program specifically for worship leaders. That's awesome and so, um yeah, so it's still in development.
Speaker 1:We're not sure what that's all going to look like yet, but yeah, of course it's in community for sure, Maybe some coaching, but that's awesome. That's amazing. Dude, Thanks so much for uh for hanging out. You're on the road leading worship and so I know you led worship this morning, you leading worship tonight, so thanks for making the time. We'll definitely have you back to chat more, but love you, bro. Thank you guys for listening to this podcast. Please like it, subscribe it, share it. If something struck you from this podcast, we'd love to hear from you. Hit us up in the comments and we'll see you guys in the next episode.
Speaker 2:See you guys, thank you.