041 Feeling Lost in Your Brand? Here’s the Truth

We don't want to build for identity, but rather from identity. Justin and Jordan discuss the difference between building and creating from a secure sense of self versus frantically creating to establish worth.

Follow Jordan Marcotte on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/jordanamarcotte

Chapters

• 0:00 Meeting Jordan Marcotte
• 2:06 Jordan's Many Creative Brands
• 5:42 Godly Folk: Building from Identity
• 13:30 Identity: Building from vs. for
• 18:03 Martial Arts and Fatherlessness
• 24:27 Faith Journey and Ministry Beginnings
• 30:10 Performance in Ministry Life
• 38:16 Breaking Free from Performance-Based Worth
• 45:11 Taking the First Break in 15 Years

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome back to another episode of the RizCast podcast, if you are a first-time listener. Here we look at the intricate life of being an entrepreneur and creative, while encouraging the pursuit of passions and dreams from a biblical worldview. Excited to be back for another season and excited today to talk with my good friend, jordan Marcotte. If you do not know this guy, you want to get to know this guy. He will talk about it today. He's on socials, he has music and all kinds of things different ways you can connect with him. I'm excited to talk with him today about this thing called creativity and entrepreneurship, and Jordan does a lot of different things. We're going to kind of dive in a couple of things today. So, jordan, just give us a quick 15-30 seconds about yourself, because I have some different questions and stuff that I want to talk about For those who don't know you, just share with us who you are.

Speaker 2: 0:55

Yeah, jordan Marcotte, I've been married seven years to my wife Sasha. We've got two beautiful daughters, we've got a son on the way coming in like four or five weeks. So that's wild, I guess kind of multidisciplined, creative love, entrepreneurship, love, the risk, and that has expressed itself many different ways over the years and, yeah, that's kind of where we're at today.

Speaker 1: 1:26

So I was trying to write down as I was prepping for this episode. We've been connected for several years and having a morning coffee or we talk, we do trainings together. You've been a speaker at my conference before and I was trying to list out and remember all the brands that you have come up with through the years. And there's one thing I can say about you, dude, is like you're like a brand machine where I mean we can ideate something and you know within like seconds you're just like I mean it's a gift Like you're just like popping out amazing titles, subtitles, taglines, and so a couple of the ones.

Speaker 1: 2:05

Of course, mark Hop Music that's you and your wife Sasha, which I've seen you guys play out different, different points in time. Coffee shops, you know you guys have done weddings, everything. Don't Quit Music, which is a phenomenal brand about whether you're a you know musician, worship leader, whatever it is. Don'tquitmusiccom uh M house, which is more of the, the branding company where you and your team that works with you. You know film things, edit things, release things for brands, whether that be you know realtors or um, you know creatives or musicians or whatever it is.

Speaker 1: 2:38

And then your most recent one, which I want to talk about a little bit, is called godly folk and you just have to be wearing that. That hat, yeah, which I want to talk about a little bit, is called godly folk, and you just have to be wearing that that hat. Yeah, just so y'all know, I didn't prep Jordan with none of this stuff, so he has no idea what we're talking about. He just happens to wear that. So godly folk is is incredible. You just hosted your first event here in Kansas city. Give us just a second on that Cause, that's really, really amazing one.

Speaker 2: 3:04

So, godly folk, I was actually driving down highway 71 or 49, whatever, like two years ago and like, like you said, I, I I'm obsessed with ideation and like like brand names or whatever, just, and the first thing I always do is always go to godaddy and I'm like I just if this exists, right. And so there was one night I was driving down the street and I don't remember like what I was thinking about, um, but, godly, thought came into my head and so I'm like I stop at the light and I get on, I get on IG. I checked IG first because I was like, I was like there's no way that this thing is not taken, you know, I don't know why it would have been, but I was like there's no way, it's not, you know. And but it was available across every single platform. And so I remember snacking it that night and I just sat on it and I wasn't sure. To me it felt like like a clothing brand or something like that which I'm not like my wife's fashion.

Speaker 2: 4:05

I'm really not, um, but after this year that I've had of kind of stepping away from, you know, full-time ministry after 15, 16 years getting more into entrepreneurship, I started realizing, like, like someone came up to me one day and they were like I was having a consultation in this. This lady was like Like someone came up to me one day and they were like I was having a consultation, and this lady was, like you just seem to be well connected, like every person I talk to seems to know you and has great things to say about you. I was like, well, praise God, because it'd be tough if it was the other way around. And one day I was sitting at the coffee shop that we always go to and I was thinking what, like? What room do I wish that I had? You know? Like what room do I wish that I had? You know? Like what, what room do I wish that I had, whether it was 10 years ago and even today. Like, what could do?

Speaker 2: 4:50

I feel like I'm lacking in community. I'm looking at other people who are pursuing other things and interests and creative endeavors, entrepreneurial endeavors, whatever we might high five, you know, at the coffee shop, may sit down, you know. But like there's not. I don't know of an opportunity where people can get together and navigate high level strategy but still care about the soul and like that's why, like, I feel like I've kind of deemed myself like this soul strategist, you know, because I love strategy, but not at the, not at the cost of losing yourself, which I think is the whole point of being able to try to build God's way or whatever kind of phrase we want to use Like we obviously want to honor God and all that we do, and so I had no idea what I would call this networking night.

Speaker 2: 5:35

I was like I'm just gonna do a networking night, do an event. I had some friends coming in town and I knew that if I brought them into town and then I said out loud and announced it it that I was going to do this, that it would kind of hold me accountable to just like trying and doing it, seeing what happened. And I love being in like I love, I love being in rooms, and I think that this was the first event or something that I had ever like done where I wasn't either performing or directly speaking or just, you know, I was able to kind of host and let other people serve crap. But we had like 120 people, 115, 120 people at our first Godly Folk Night. The goal that night was specifically to address dreams, how to overcome doubt, how to overcome disappointment, ask deeper questions than just sliding business cards across the table. Nothing wrong with that, by the way. I would hope that we would all collab with each other, that we would all be able to provide high value service and all that stuff.

Speaker 2: 6:33

Do the business thing.

Speaker 2: 6:35

But I've just I wanted people to be able to walk into a room and maybe find someone that it wasn't just a business card swap, but it was like let's get coffee and talk deeper, let's be known, be seen, have some environment where we can be encouraged and strengthened.

Speaker 2: 6:53

And because I didn't have an official name, I just I was like, let's just do godly folk. And so godly folk kind of embodied this idea of how can we, how can we build from identity, not for identity, like, how can we build kingdom creatives and legacy brands that obviously are for their unto, the impact that we desire to make, but not at the cost of our like I said our soul, our rest, our ability to be obedient over just trying to stick to the thing that we feel like we have to do, because we saw it on Instagram that we can still like, we can still submit our businesses, our ideas and our endeavors to the Lord. So. So that's kind of the high level and low of where it came from and then what the event, kind of what it was purposed for. And then we have the. It's coming up again this Friday.

Speaker 1: 7:36

So yeah, so you had 125 people in a room business people, artists, musicians, creatives, whatever you said, the statement from identity not for identity. Break that down.

Speaker 2: 7:48

Yeah, so that's probably like my, I think, as a human, like as somewhat like, that's kind of like my biggest thing, I think. Um, I think I teach, build, speak from that more than anything. One yeah For me when I think about from um, no-transcript, I need it to encapsulate who I am. That will always create friction against who God says that we are as children of God. And so I remember one of the biggest things like being fatherless, growing up in levels of brokenness and trauma just because I became a Christian didn't make being a son of God or having a heavenly father easy for me. Someone's like you should be pumped about that, I'm like, but I have no context, even like I have no context for that. And so my journey, even as a believer the last excuse me 18 years has been that of like learning to heal and then actually reclaim and uncover, like what my true identity actually is as a son. And so one of the biggest revelations this year, and I guess maybe even just since I became a father you know my oldest is four and so the last four years two years having another two-year-old and then having my son come I just remember like I don't want to build anything for the place of identity. But see, my whole life has been so performative, everything was, was like my worth, was so attached to my work and, um, you know whether it was proving, pretending, you know, pleasing all of it, like I just even with god, which is really, really hard, because that's not just none of it's sustainable, but that's just not sustainable. And I just remember breaking down to this truth, like I felt like to like the truest form where it's like, if I'm a son, if it's true that I'm a son and I can actually heal that position, like get to a place where there's nothing in the way of that, then that level of confidence can inform the rest of who I am and what are what I do. And so, instead of like, the reality is, I wasn't born a husband, I was not born a father, I was not born a creative, I was not born an entrepreneur, I was not born doing this business, I was not born doing that brand, I was born, though, a son, and so for me, my journey was being able to come back to a level of healing with that. But see, now that level of sonship now informs all of my other titles and things that I do. And so, even in this season where there's been a lot of like, maybe there's unique level levels or of stress, maybe new responsibilities, I'm upholding all of this kind of stuff my motto in my head.

Speaker 2: 10:31

I say it probably multiple times a day, where it's just like Jordan but what would a son do? What would a son do? And, of course, without me going into the prodigal son story, it's like it really does depict both of that, from the entitled brother to the son who came. You know what I mean. Like like he he knew who his, he knew who his father was thinking. Like if I just look how he treats his, his servants, you know, what I mean.

Speaker 2: 10:55

If I could just come back in that position, cool yeah, and I've been.

Speaker 2: 10:59

I've been trying to really work on and desire to want to build from that place, because I think looking in, in realizing that he's the provider and I can be a partner and a finder with him, has really reframed a lot of like I want.

Speaker 2: 11:14

I want the right kind of responsibility, but I don't want to take on something that's not mine and um, and so I think when we build business, when we build creativity or anything, when we do it from identity, I think it's actually it's like we hold it differently. The end result is different. I think it actually allows us to be of service to other people and it's not built so that it can, you know, stroke our ego and build our self-esteem or make us feel like we belong, or that. You know you get where I'm going with all of that. So, from building from versus for, I think just it's really liberated me, and so I think Godly Folk as a brand has kind of embodied that, or I want it to embody that. As you know, we get believers together that there's never a moment where we begin like trying to use what we do to build, to affirm our sonship, essentially, at the end of the day, you know, love that, I love that now.

Speaker 1: 12:08

Is that the type of thing where you're open to like if someone's listening to this in a different state or even a different country right now? Um, you know, having kind of godly folk type gatherings in different cities and nations?

Speaker 2: 12:20

probably I mean, think you know me and you talk about this all the time. I obviously am very much an in-person person, but I know that there needs to be more online opportunities to be able to connect, become, you know, worldwide meaning any person with a cell phone or a computer can access anyone across the world at any time. Whatever, just meaning like. I would rather be able to host these opportunities where there can be some, you know, online anchor points where people can still get teaching, encouragement and don't have to, like the demand isn't always on the room, so. But I just love the rope, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:01

Love that. So talk to us about you. You weren't, you know, born entrepreneur. You were born all different things. Were you born a black belt in karate?

Speaker 2: 13:10

I was not born a black belt in karate. I indeed had to earn that sucker. Yeah I, I done all the other conventional sports football, baseball, the whole deal. My grandfather took me to a taekwondo tournament when I was like seven and that sparked a massive interest, and of course this was during, you know, the era of, like you know, ninja turtles and power rangers were just like super hot, and so every kid wanted to do karate but yeah, I got into it, man at eight years old were you ever a gi joe guy or not?

Speaker 2: 13:43

so much, I was never a gi joe guy, believe it or not, so much, I was never a GI Joe guy, believe it or not, I love GI Joe's. Yeah, I could see that you probably still have some in your office, don't you? I probably do. I'm not going to show my family. So, yeah, man, I mean, that was martial arts, was looking back. That was one of the greatest gifts to me as someone who struggled with fatherlessness, who was looking for mentorship and guidance.

Speaker 1: 14:06

So you never knew. Never knew your father. I met him when I was 21.

Speaker 2: 14:18

Little, you're 21. So you grew up single parent home for part of it, and then a stepdad came in. Yeah, so my mom had me when she was 15 and um, and I I, you know I owe her so much old in front of me, and then my mom's first husband, um, that man did more emotional damage, I think in a short amount of time. Um, you know framed frame. You know, one of the memories is is uh being in the living room and he's like I won't buy you anything unless you call me dad. And so there was, there was this lot of his insecurity. You know, sonship and fatherhood was just built around manipulation and you know, uh, and so that framed a lot of my early years, from zero, you know, from being born, to like six or seven, eight.

Speaker 2: 15:17

There was like a lot of, a lot of uh, yeah, emotional suppression and created a lot of uh, yeah, so so that journey suppression and created a lot of yeah, so so that journey, like I said, that journey to sonship, like martial arts, really helped create a sense of discipline, you know, and you just combined all of that with being a biracial kid. You're just trying to figure out where you belong, you're trying to figure out what you're supposed to claim, who you're supposed to be, I mean it just. We could go on and on about all that stuff. But that's why identity is such a huge thing for me now you know later in life is because that's one of the greatest gifts I think God gave me was just understanding belonging, without it being like some cheesy thing. You know, it took a long. It took a long time to get there.

Speaker 1: 16:02

Yeah, I was going to say, was this sonship revelation? It wasn't a time at an altar call it's camp in high school. So you say it took a long time. We're talking years, like decade plus.

Speaker 2: 16:13

Yeah for sure. Yeah, there was a lot of layers to it, man, literally up until up. I'm not saying that we ever like arrive, but there's been layers of it, even up until now, being, you know, like, when I burnt out, I just at 34, you know, a year and a half ago, I just I realized, man, I again I had carried such a performative bent about me, you know, even with God, and so it really didn't matter about what I could say out of my mouth. My behavior didn't reflect that, and so there was still just a lot of like. I got gotta prove something to somebody, and not even just somebody but him.

Speaker 1: 16:49

And so where martial arts became so you said it was positive, was there also like a crutch in that? Because, because you won what was it like?

Speaker 2: 16:57

some midwest type competitions like yeah I mean, I just I was the number one competitor for two years in just all around martial arts in the Midwest. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 17:09

Okay, okay. So that's, that's pretty. So you were like driven, disciplined. Martial arts taught you that, but then the Lord began to use that. You know the discipline in your, in other areas of your life.

Speaker 2: 17:22

Right For sure, yeah, yeah for sure, yeah, because it was it. It was, it was good. Like the honestly the performative part of it, of my trying to find my worth and my value showed up in a lot of other areas and I feel like, if I did not have martial arts, let me explain that. Other areas like like in school, or relationships, or friendships, or even at home, you know like friendships, or even at home, you know like uh. And so martial arts, I think, really helped ground me and taught me, taught me, longevity.

Speaker 2: 17:50

Right, because as an eight-year-old, in order to get your black belt, you know, martial arts is not seasonal. It's not like football or something where I'm gonna go play, take a break, play another sport, get all excited about football again. That's why there was a lot of like dropout and and turnover, turnover in. In karate, um, the churn level was high because kids just got tired and burnt out and uh, lost interest, I guess more than anything, and so uh, but then God used it, man, to lead me to himself. That's the, that's the wildest thing you know to your believer.

Speaker 1: 18:20

So even though your home was very intense growing up you, you had the Lord time I did.

Speaker 2: 18:25

No, not at all, I did not. I um, I met a karate team at a tournament in when I was 16 and then I started driving from topeka, kansas, to baser, kansas, which is roughly an hour, basically kansas city. I'll just say that. So from topeka, kansas to kansas city I drive every weekend. I started training with them, traveling with them, and that's where kind of like, yeah, this whole thing started exploding, for I drive every weekend, I started training with them, traveling with them, and that's where kind of like, yeah, this whole thing started exploding for me. So every weekend I would go and do that.

Speaker 2: 18:51

And then the karate instructor started taking us to church and I didn't it's not like I had I had maybe gone to. You know, I went to, like Awana's, you know, with some friends growing up I went to a youth group once or twice, um, but I didn't have any like negative connotations to church, right, like I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't like offended or anything. So I wasn't, I wasn't like resistant to go when the karate instructor wanted to take us, and so I was doing martial arts in Topeka. Then I met this team in Kansas City, would travel every single week and it started becoming part of the routine. We would go to church on Sunday, then I would go back home.

Speaker 2: 19:25

We did that for like six months, nine months, and so, long story short, it was February 18th 2007. I was a junior in high school Again, I'd been going to church with them for like six months, nine months. I probably would have told you I was a Christian, but I didn't really know a life of surrender. And then it was that night. It was a Monday night I'll never forget, or it was that night, it was a. It was a monday night I'll never forget, or it was a sunday night, um, because we had monday off the next day. And, yeah, I surrendered my life to jesus.

Speaker 1: 19:50

And then that's where, kind of everything, everything shifted and pivoted there and you never dealt with um blaming god for your upbringing no, I mean, I never did like.

Speaker 2: 20:06

I'm really grateful that I had amazing grandparents. Okay, I think my life could have taken a lot of turns Even with them. I think my life could have taken so many turns with how informed I was in the beginning. But again, the way I've been speaking about this lately is, I said, you know, a lot of people look at kids who grew up fatherless or just like, are introduced to um, I don't want to get this wrong. I remember I did a, I did a quiz a few weeks ago Aces, are you familiar with that? Um, uh, let me just let me look it up, cause this is, this was huge for me, man. Um, I think it's like someone watching this is going to think you should know this. Yeah, adverse childhood experiences I had never, I'd never even heard of that before, but I tested like seven out of 10. Like it was, it was, it was nuts and, and so, yeah, man, like I think I could have gone a lot of different directions.

Speaker 2: 21:05

But, yeah, the way I've been explaining this lately is like some people learn how to act up and it's easier to see what's happening on the surface. Right, oh, they're doing this, they're doing that. Their behavior's bad. You know they get older. Now they're on drugs, now they're sleeping around alcohol, whatever you know, like all the things that I feel like we, oh man, they must've really had it bad. I just learned to act Like I just learned to perform, and the issue with that behavior, the issue with learning that is a lot. You get praised for that Right. So, like I was, I was young, charismatic, handsome kid, best smile in high school, up for homecoming, flipping 12 feet in the air, number one champion, national champion in cheerleading. Like bro, I just I was hitting all, I was hitting all of it, bro.

Speaker 2: 21:53

And but the issue is that if you don't, if you don't allow that to go to a soul level and you start to teach kids emotional intelligence, you start to navigate mental health and getting clarity around all of that, what ultimately ends up happening is, I think, that we, just we build. We build that into our careers, we build that into our relationships and I think that that's where, ultimately, men specifically end up running into issues later on in life. They cheat on their wives, they can't handle the pressure, they don't know how to communicate, they shut down, they burn out, and it's because they've been praised for the external stuff, and so they perform and perform, and perform. And so I'm just so much like person over performance, which is crazy because, like I am just a high level performer.

Speaker 2: 22:39

Yeah, you know, I'm just like me and you both. I would say we're both just like high achieving, we're like on, we get it, and there's a healthy way to do that. But when your performance is attached to your worth, oh dude, it's just, it's a horrible way to live and so yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:53

So let's go a little bit deeper here now. 15 years, 17 years, 15 years full-time ministry, 15. 15. So, taking all this talk of performance that we're talking about, you step in at what age to full-time ministry. How old are you Right now I'm 35. So when you started full-time ministry you were 20?, 19., 19. And talk about that. Let's just be real. Talk here, because I think performance, no matter how your upbringing was, because there's people who maybe grew up in a great, quote-unquote, great home two parents and have that type of abuse, who also massively perform from the other end of that pendulum. Let's just kind of go there a little bit and be real here. Be real here in ministry.

Speaker 1: 23:46

There is a strong propensity to perform, not only in your craft like karate, you know, okay, you're performing in karate. But in the church, if you have a gift that's being utilized whether that's the you know parking lot attendant, or the musician, or the pastor who's preaching, or the Sunday school person, whatever it is I have a gift, I'm utilizing it in the church. It's also tied to your walk with the Lord in many ways. So how did that? I have a lot of thoughts.

Speaker 2: 24:21

We'll see if I share them here, but give us kind of what your thought is on that, yeah, I mean, that's to be honest with you, that's a whole podcast that we, that we could do, All right, so let me, let me try to do this where it's not, where I'm not all over the place. So when I okay, so, real quick, this will I feel like this will bring a lot of clarity for like, whatever. So when I, when I joined that youth group, I got saved in my youth pastor's garage. We had no church building, so that was that night, February 18th 07, on my space, that prehistoric social platform. The youth pastor, he, was like do you want to be the praise and worship leader? Now, for me, genuinely, I do not sing. I, at that point, I could not sing. I could not play an instrument. Right, I was number one champion. I'm doing all this stuff.

Speaker 2: 25:11

And so people thought I was crazy, for, like I, slowly I stepped away from martial arts, I stepped away from my future, I stepped away from going to business school. You know, I even tried it and still felt just so convicted. I went there for a semester, All that stuff. So I was headed into being an entrepreneur. That's what's crazy. It was my best subject in senior year or junior year in high school and I loved it so much. I was going into business school. I wanted to open up my own martial arts studio. I love teaching all that stuff. So then, when I let all that go and I picked up music and worship leading, I believe that I actually got a really amazing gift as a worship leader, because it wasn't about in that moment I started leading worship without it being about the music. It was all about seeking God, finding what's on his heart and then leading by example. Then music came. So then to spare you long story it's like obviously I got a little bit better. I jumped into full-time ministry, did an internship, got plugged up with other people who were doing, you know, music and worship leading full-time, and then we just, you know, I went for it.

Speaker 2: 26:10

The issue is that in the beginning I was so optimistic, I was so willing, I felt so much grace to let go of everything. I mean people thought I was crazy man. You know what I mean, Because I'm telling you like I had folks that were like, bro, you can't sing at all and I'm like that's awesome, you know. Now it's funny now, right, Because it's like I've been around the world now singing and cutting records and leading worship and doing this stuff. So I'm grateful to God that he gave so much grace to do that. But that performative nature, like literally just an out of my mouth, bro, I promise you.

Speaker 2: 26:41

I used to say I never want worship leading to become what martial arts was, I think toward the tail end of karate. I think it got really easy again, just for me to. I need this to tell me who I am, Please tell me who I am. And so I had a lot of opportunities young that I felt like God. I felt like God gave me opportunities to climb ladders to a certain degree, only to fall down. I felt like he let me taste fame. I felt like he let me taste certain things.

Speaker 2: 27:14

Be among leaders who I thought were going to be responsible for providing these grandiose opportunities for me massive levels of disappointment, always bringing me back to himself, you know. And so when your survival method is relying on your skill and your talent and your giftings, they'll fail you because you're not building character. And so some of the issues even as I got older dude, I would watch people excuse bad character or excuse even opportunities to discipline me like raise me up as a good, solid man with great integrity and character, because they were afraid to lose me as an asset to their ministry, to their church, to their thing. And so what that did in me was like it just reinforced this idea that I can just I feel crappy on the inside, but I guess I'm just going to continue to perform my way through.

Speaker 2: 28:15

And so, in worship leading like I know you probably wanted me to talk a little bit more exclusively about worship leading, but like then, with like the actual job of worship leading, sometimes, man, like I think I was thinking about this the other day because someone was like what was what's one of the, what's one of the things that changed the most when you took your first year off after 15 years, 16 years, I said I've been more mindful about what I'm singing and what I'm not singing in the congregation, because I don't want to lie, I don't want to just, I don't want to just say stuff I don't mean, you know, but when I was a worship leader, I always felt so responsible to bridge the gap, regardless of how you feel. And sometimes, bro, yeah, man, like when you're responsible Again, I was a cheerleader, bro, I was responsible to take the crowd and what was going on in the field and be that mediator. Y'all got this, you got this right. So, as worship leaders, I'm sitting there with my guitar man. I'm like, hey, you might feel X, Y, Z, but man, he's good. And now listen, all that stuff is true. All that stuff is true.

Speaker 2: 29:15

But I just remember man feeling like there were times where I knew that my soul wasn't good and I felt guilty, I felt shame, I felt like a complainer, I felt like something was off with me if I wanted to step down, step away. I felt like I was abandoning some grandiose responsibility, not stewarding the gift. And again, I know we could take this into micro, little lanes when it comes to the job, the role of worship leader, but that performative nature man found its its way through that whole journey, because there were moments where I'm like, yes, I'm grateful, I guess, that I could still show up here and still we can all align ourselves with what's true about God. But at the same time, like I'm just not well in here. Does anyone care about that? Like is it cool that I just can I step down and so, yeah, so anyways, that's that's the yeah, yeah, that's real.

Speaker 1: 30:12

And, and you know, just just being vulnerable myself, you know, I spent 15 years on staff, you know, with the international house of prayer in Kansas city and there's a lot we could talk about with that and I'm grateful for so much, so much that the Lord did in that. But just narrowing in on this, this one little performance piece, you know, um, it was, it was challenging because, like, showing up, you know, to a room is what is what you did, you know, and, hey, you show up, you know, you, you do your prayer room hours, you do your set on stage, you lead, you know whatever, and um, but again, but again, even in that, like I've had so many conversations with people where it's like, oh, man, it was, it was horrible. Like, you know, how dare you, you know, make people show up to a prayer room? And it's so legalistic and everything else, and there's there's elements of truth to that, but in those 15 years it was a, it was a wrestle for me. Now, in hindsight, you know, of man, I'm grateful for someone compelling me to show up, because in the showing up, even if my motives weren't 100% pure, even sometimes if my motives were like, well, this leader, you know they'll know if I'm not there, I need to show up. Right, good things were fashioned inside of my heart and done inside of my heart. There was some, definitely some some funk mixed in there as well.

Speaker 1: 31:40

Uh, performance or you know whatever it is, and but you know there's, there's, there are elements of, if you work a a job nine to five, you know it's a little more cut and dry. If so, if you don't show up, you're probably gonna be fired. You know what I'm saying. You will be fired. But you know, at IHOP, the house of prayer, or at ministries or whatever it's, it's um, a layer deep, deeper, because it's like man, this is my, my walk with God is tied to this. My church, family is tied to this. Maybe a mentor or a pastor is tied to this. And so when, when you have um, I think one of the greatest things when I'm coaching worship leaders are talking to creatives right now is find a mentor who can shoot straight with you.

Speaker 1: 32:29

Because I think you know, and ideally we see, ideally I want to see, you know, pastors think like this, that some of them probably never will, but because a pastor cares about the heart of people. But I find a lot of times pastors in churches are just preachers or teachers. They have a teaching gift. It's like, okay, actually, when we get to the nitty-gritty, I talk to you, you're actually not a pastor, because pastors you don't care about the people. That's not their primary gift and it's people are expendable. It's like, hey, you don't show up, hey, we don't need you anymore, I'm doing my thing, whatever. And so, um, it's good man, yeah no, I just agree with you.

Speaker 2: 33:10

Yeah, I mean it does. It does get tricky because it's like it's easy. It's I just feel like it's easy for it to get manipulated. You know, do all things unto as if you do it unto the lord, like there's all these like biblical, like principles and all these things. But again, it's like, how do we like, how do we find, I just think that not everything in life is about balance. I think balance is this effort to try to suggest that all things are equal, and so we're trying to stack certain things to actually like make it equal in balance, when I just I don't agree with that.

Speaker 2: 33:53

For instance, you know, like a big part of this season, right when I realize, um, okay, my like I stepped away because of mentors. I actually did not choose it for myself. I actually was going to continue on in ministry and I had a mentor who saw something, who said hey, have you ever taken a break? No, I haven't. Right when I had to realize like I actually wanted to love Jesus at 50. And I realized that I was not going in a good direction. I felt like I was going to be, you know, jaded, bitter, and I wanted to actually and just believe that it would be better for my children than for me, right, that they would have a better go at this than than I did. I actually wanted to, you know, like love the church, not just be held under this thing of like. You just have to like find your place and do work at the church. I do think that people should serve their local community or whatever, of course, but man, like I just I had, I had someone who saw that my well-being and the condition of my soul was important, and so I just think it's like even paying attention to the ministry of my home, how's my wife, how's my marriage? How's my walk with my children? Am I loving them well? Am I present or am I constantly here? And so when you have that layer, like you said, sometimes it's more cut dry with a nine to five, you know here.

Speaker 2: 35:10

And so when you have that layer, like you said, like sometimes it's more cut dry with a nine to five. But then we have this other layer where now it's easy for leadership to be like you know. That's why I would always like over-spiritualize everything, because I always felt like I needed like a word, like a word from God, in order to make any kind of decision right, even even taking on worship jobs at a church. You know, like, whatever bro I have, I've been asked, probably just like you, a million times to come and take worship positions Right, and they'll just like. One of the first things every time they ask is like, do you feel called here? Like for the next 20 years, like that's how it feels, you know, and I'm like you don't even want to talk about salary with me. You know what I mean. Until you know that God said I'm here and I'm like, as much as I understand that, I'm like guys, come on, man, like I don't know. There's just like again, we could take this so many different ways, but that perform again.

Speaker 2: 36:01

I think it's just about if, if we're not trying to perform for our identity, then I think that we can have very clear ways that we know how we're honoring God with our, with what we're doing, how we honor the responsibility of service that we're providing in partnership with another ministry, um, and we don't have to feel guilty about saying no, yeah, and honestly, bro, I like again. I think that life comes in more rhythms, like we're musicians, like blend and paying attention to like, if everything, justin, justin, if every musician was equal in the mix, it would sound like utter chaos. Yeah, and so that's how I see life, or even the responsibilities that make up life. It's more rhythmic and and and we would it balance. But like everything gets done differently this compression, this EQ, whatever and so it's like when I look at that, I just go.

Speaker 2: 36:58

I think, as long as we can actually like understand that we are serving from this place, we're secure in God. We're not trying to prove anything to him, we're just trying to honor and do work as if it's unto him. Yeah, you know, like I just, and do work as if it's unto him. Yeah, you know, like I just, I really do think that it's different, and that's been one of the biggest liberations for me is I've removed myself from feeling guilty. You know false loyalty places and with people, yeah.

Speaker 1: 37:26

So, anyways, yeah, I just I mean and we're touching on something here, that's that's. That's pretty, pretty deep, but I do think is an epidemic in a lot of churches and a lot of worshipers listening to this podcast, a lot of creatives, mostly believers. But if you're not aware, in that culture again in the upper echelon, if you will, of these ministries where if every ministry is here, then it kind of fans out like a triangle ministries where you know, if every ministry is here, then it kind of fans out like a triangle. You know, if you're on the tips of that triangle again, every ministry is beautiful as unto the Lord. You know the car lot guy directing traffic, the person doing, you know the snack shop, whatever it is at a church. But the higher you get, you know, the closer you get to the upper echelon of it is really when a lot of times you begin to see a lot of these things and I'm not demonizing every church out there, there are great churches. I know phenomenal pastors who who lead in a in an excellent way. But as you get closer to that upper echelon is when you begin to feel and sense a lot of things that you just mentioned, where you know, um, loyalty can be questioned, but I want to just mention that really quickly here and again.

Speaker 1: 38:30

This, this could be a whole podcast in and of itself, but the hyper spiritualization that if you grew up as a christian you're listening to this podcast um, there's a good chance that there's a hyper spiritualization. That, um, you know, you kind of learned, you know, and again, it's, it's not all bad, there's a lot of good things in there, like Like we should be, you know, set apart from the world, you know, whatever those types of things and live a biblical life. But I think in the realm of leaving a church leaving a church job or those types of things can sometimes just be hyper spiritualized, where it's like, well, what is God saying to you? So many times that, yes, there are, there are references in the word where it's like, you know, in the book of acts, hey, um, stay here until you're in dude with power from on high, totally, that's called the holy spirit being poured out. That wasn't, like you know, stay here until I tell you which city to go to paul. It's like all right, I'm praying, like you know. Is it thessalonica or is it colossi? Where should I go? You? He spent like six years in prayer. Like which city should I go to?

Speaker 1: 39:34

Yes, sir, mostly what I see in the Bible is the Lord gave us the marching orders, if you will, and he has written it down in his book that, as the ones who love Jesus, we should know his word. I even think of Jesus. You know, he Jesus. He says I only do what I see my father doing. He didn't say what I hear my father saying, what I see my father doing.

Speaker 1: 39:59

I'm not claiming to know the fullness of what that means. Did Jesus have an open reality to heaven when he was hanging on earth? I don't know. I think that more to mean I know how my father lives, I know how my father thinks, I know my father moves because I draw a way to be with him. And so, in terms of like, do I cross the Jordan today or do I cross the Jordan tomorrow, man, like I just need to, I need to know when do I cross this river? Like I need to know, you know it's like no, I think you can just kind of live and move and walk, because God is inside of you, god is dwelling within you, the Holy spirit is the helper and he speaks. And so I know we're talking a lot.

Speaker 1: 40:39

You know about these deep things and um, but I really think that, as creatives, as entrepreneurs, as worship leaders, having an ear, yes, tuned to heaven, but an ear tuned to God's word, and if what your dream is, what your desire is, what your inkling is what you have a millimeter thought for a second, maybe I should go do this. You know, if it's not contrary to God's word, yeah, pray about it. Maybe. Maybe put a fleece out there you know there's biblical examples of that or whatever. Test God, you know whatever like in in. Maybe, maybe put a fleece out there you know there's biblical examples of that or whatever. Test God, you know whatever like in in some, some ways, that biblical people have. But I also think you can just go ahead and do that. You don't need to wait five years. It's not against, the contrary to God's word. Just move. And so I want to just end this podcast share and we'll have you back again, because I've enjoyed this conversation. There's a lot of other things I'd love to talk to you about. We'll have you back, but just walk us through, and I know you and I were talking a lot during that season.

Speaker 1: 41:43

15 years you had this mentor say hey, bro, you ever considered like stopping that? How long from that moment? Well, number one did that? Resonate immediately, because 15 years is a long time, 15 years full time. So it's paying the bills. You're traveling the world, you know millions of streams on spotify. It's paying the bills like. So I said, hey, um, you ever thought about stopping that? Were you like absolutely, I'm in. Were you like whoa, like identity, like walk us through that process a little bit.

Speaker 2: 42:10

It was like a sense of relief, immediately, for sure, immediately, wow, because I had never had a leader or someone that I felt like deeply cared about me say that before that that was even an option.

Speaker 2: 42:28

Was this someone at the church? No, it was someone who very invested into my wife and I's music career and that turned deeper into, um, you know, friendship and and uh and so at this, at this moment, I was, because of this situation, I'd left my other church to come and start this other church with the youth pastors where I got saved in their garage, right. So we all started a church three years ago and I was working for a. Financially, the only way to do that was to be able to come in and do content work for the pastor's roofing company and be on staff. Be on staff like just come and help with the church, and so, long story short, and it was something I could agree to because it worked out. It was them. I wanted to do this, I wanted to be a part of it. But, um, but yeah, the thing that I had stepped away from when I was considering all this was just the roofing content stuff, and so I was in a full agreement to that.

Speaker 1: 43:29

But even out of my mouth.

Speaker 2: 43:30

I'm like no, I could never no I don't think god wants me to step away from like leading, worship and pastoring and whatever you know, because I was the associate pastor there too, and the whole deal.

Speaker 2: 43:39

But sitting here in this living room right here one night, sitting with this couple and me and my wife were processing with them, and he looks at me and he's just like I think you took, because they had given me like a severance to step away and kind of help, a transition, and he was like I think you took the severance from the wrong job like kind of like as a joke. He was serious but, like you know, he said it like lighthearted, knowing that it was about to come, with like a ton of bricks falling down. He's like, have you ever taken a break? And I said, dude, like no joke, from 19 to 34, I had never, ever taken any kind of retreat away from leading worship, being in altar, ministry, and so and like you, you know, being at the house of prayer.

Speaker 2: 44:20

For those initial parts of my, my journey, it's like, dude, I was on two teams, I was leading worship on a Sunday with church. When you're young and ambitious, it's like, well, you're living the dream with church. When you're young and ambitious, it's like, well, you're living the dream, but it's not sustainable and um and so, yeah, man, like it was a, an immediate relief, an immediate relief, and I thought it was just going to be a three month thing and, to be honest with you, it took three months just to even decompress. I mean it like uh, so yeah, I, I think I mean I just helped lead worship for Father's Day, like I maybe led worship two times in the last year and a half, which is insane.

Speaker 2: 45:00

Three times which has never happened. So, yeah, man, immediate relief and zero regrets. And what God has done? Again, this is a conversation for another day, but what God has done this year has been nothing short of just miraculous and um and amazing freeing, genuinely freeing on the inside. So I love it yeah that's amazing, dude.

Speaker 1: 45:21

I appreciate your time. We'll definitely have you back. I love the conversation and, uh, thank you guys for listening. Go give this guy a follow. We'll put his instagram some of his different brands in the show notes and you guys can check him out. Thank you guys so much. Thanks, justin you.